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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Turbine PHT3
 
 
birdeye
Heliman
Location: Bratislava, Slowak Republik- Europe

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Hello Bell Bloke,
Meanwhile thanks for the reply but my English is poor and so I must have translated ...
07-23-2009 11:17 PM
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seattle_helo
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA USA

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You mentioned >30kg AUW in an earlier post. Is that correct? That's over 66 pounds. I think you are well in excess of the spec'd loads with this machine- hence the failure of that output shaft. The PHT3 is rated to 17kg @ 900rpm. If you are running 700rpm at over 30kg than you are over torquing the drive train for certain. You might need a more powerful solution for that kind of high-end camera ship. Honestly I'm surprised the main gear survived that type of load so long without failure before that output shaft. Very interesting.
07-23-2009 11:21 PM
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Bell Bloke
Key Veteran
Location: ....

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Errr 30kg at 700? That would explain it.
07-23-2009 11:33 PM
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birdeye
Heliman
Location: Bratislava, Slowak Republik- Europe

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stated that I would once more data:

-Turbíne RPM 95 500 1/min
-in the main shaft turbíne is 1300 RPM
-plus the transfer of the second toothed belt on main rotor shaft
is RPM 700...these speeds are recommended for the M-Blades rotor diameter 2540 mm!



Turbine operating at an output not the problem ... but the problem is the mechanical load ..... but it is interesting that the break is staft tail gear output.... not the main pinion!



It is clear to me that it is preferable to use the powerful turbine but I used what I had available.
07-24-2009 11:25 AM
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PETER ROB
Key Veteran
Location: Devon UK

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birdeye,Just had a look through the photo's
That is the tail output drive,Yes?, so the whole helicopter does not hang on it as stated in another post, that would be the mainshaft
If you look at the black ring on top of the main gear, this is caused by the idler bearing, if this bearing is too tight on the main gear it does not allow any flex so the main gear is being forced on to the output drive
Next time you have a look there should be a very small gap between the main gear and the idler bearing, I was told just the thickness of a cigarette paper would be enough
Peter R
07-24-2009 02:01 PM
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birdeye
Heliman
Location: Bratislava, Slowak Republik- Europe

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Thank you PETER ROB checked and set according to your advice
07-24-2009 02:19 PM
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Bell Bloke
Key Veteran
Location: ....

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Ah I made the same assumtion that others here did.. I thought that was main drive from the clutch and that your pics were just showing before and after shots.
That tail drive must have been cranked up awfully tight to break like that!
07-24-2009 04:09 PM
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birdeye
Heliman
Location: Bratislava, Slowak Republik- Europe

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Hi Bell Bloke,

Sorry, I thought that the pick is clear that the tail rotor gear.
But the kardan is OK and comes without the least resistance .... it's org from Kardan Vario for XLV mechanics ...
07-24-2009 04:36 PM
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Bell Bloke
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No your pics were fine, I assumed, and one should never do that.
07-24-2009 05:09 PM
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seattle_helo
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA USA

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Yes, I assumed too. Looking at that shaft more closely it is much too small a diameter to be from the clutch assembly. And I also see now that you already listed the other turbine specs and your secondary drive configuration. Peter's solution might be all you need to have a completly successful setup. One thing you can do in the future is monitor your pinion gear temps after each flight to confirm all is well. The main output pinion does get very warm (approx. 120 degree F) due to the load it endures. The tail drive pinion, conversly, should be much cooler. Not much more than ambient. It does sound to me that Peter has it right since the main gear should only have very light marks on it from the idler bearings. It seems likely yours was adjusted too tightly. Did your tail rotor spin nice and freely by hand prior to the failure?

nick
07-24-2009 07:37 PM
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birdeye
Heliman
Location: Bratislava, Slowak Republik- Europe

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OK I understand, I'm still free temperature sensor to the Eagle Trre telemetry so it can be used to monitor temperature and even in flight ...or infrared thermometer to measure after flight
07-24-2009 07:54 PM
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birdeye
Heliman
Location: Bratislava, Slowak Republik- Europe

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tail rotor spin nice and freely by hand prior to the failure?....

Yes
07-24-2009 08:01 PM
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DKTek
Veteran
Location: Melbourne, FL-USA

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Quote 
However just a note of caution, that stress will be transferred into other components... keep an eye out for the next issue that will most certainly be drivetrain related.

I bet I know where it'll be... The cruciform elements will crush, the heli will spin at least a half turn and scare the crap out of you when it finally fails. Mine recovered twice but I count it as luck. I replace mine every hour of flight time now. Note that I am running the four blade tail with the longer blades....a bit more rotational mass than your set up but IMO, this will be your next failure. Pull the tail boom and inspect the elements for any indication of compression.

The backlash will get sloppy as it begins to fail with flight time but it's easy to check before each flight. You'll notice it for sure and don't count it as break in...

The beatings will continue until morale improves...
07-26-2009 12:10 AM
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seattle_helo
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA USA

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I know others have had problems with the blue cruciform elements in the claw couplers but I have enjoyed reliable operation from them even with a four blade tail. Why do you suppose your element crushed in your setup?

Birdeye, if your TR system was bind free and spun easily by hand then maybe your gear mesh/idler clearance was okay after all. What was your tail RPM, btw?
07-26-2009 01:32 AM
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DKTek
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Location: Melbourne, FL-USA

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Quote 
Why do you suppose your element crushed in your setup?

Quote 
a bit more rotational mass than your set up

The failures happen when the most torque was demanded, i.e. rapid decels, punch out...or close to it. Whenever the collective is close to max. The two stage, I assume, has a lot of torque available... maybe more than the element can handle with the added mass from using the longer tail blades. I ran out of the blue ones and now I'm on to the yellow ones that are the same as the blue. McMaster Auto is said to have a sturdier version but I haven't found the correct part number yet.

When the element crushes, it allows the couplers to misalign which throws the center shaft off to one side. The forward coupler actually touched the inner sidewall of the tail boom. That results in a slight rpm loss that makes the heli spin momentarily. I reduced power both times and I assume the shafts realigned as the spin stopped. Of course I came right in and landed...smoothly and gently, ready on the throttle hold if it happened again. A note on the spin rate, this is a big heli and slow. Although it catches you off guard, it's not as dramatic as losing the tail on a 3D machine.

The beatings will continue until morale improves...
07-26-2009 02:00 AM
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seattle_helo
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA USA

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Interesting for sure. Those blue elements are flexible but also pretty tough to squeeze in the hand. I guess extreme loads in flight could make quick work of it under the right conditions, though. It's amazing to me how much torque load all of this stuff sustains, really. Are you getting your yellow ones from McMaster?
07-26-2009 02:12 AM
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DKTek
Veteran
Location: Melbourne, FL-USA

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Stock replacements for the blue ones. I ordered my last couple from Joe Howard at East Coast.

Have you inspected yours yet? It's a quick and easy inspection. I take about a half hour from start to finish.

The beatings will continue until morale improves...
07-26-2009 03:35 AM
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seattle_helo
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA USA

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Maybe I should PM you about this so that the thread does not get hijacked. But just to clarify, are you saying the blue elements are no longer provided by Vario and the yellow ones are? If so, I did not know that. I have had the torque tube out as recently as last month and both elements looked fine. I'm also using the spring "keepers" around the entire claw/element diameter for whatever they are worth.
07-26-2009 04:23 AM
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PETER ROB
Key Veteran
Location: Devon UK

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Maybe I should PM you

Nick, Keep it on the open forum, it makes interesting reading, I am sure birdeye will not mind
You could always go over to DKTek's topic post if he does
Peter R
07-26-2009 07:22 AM
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DKTek
Veteran
Location: Melbourne, FL-USA

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Sorry about that guys. Not wanting to hijack.

I can't say that they are a replacement, just a different color. Thanks for the "Keeper" info, I'll google it.

The beatings will continue until morale improves...
07-26-2009 07:37 AM
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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Turbine PHT3
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