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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Crash in Colombia
 
 
red_z06
Elite Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

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This is what happens when the lift created by the ground effect disapears. As soon as the aircraft lifts above the ground effect (1/2 to 1 wingspan) it looses the lift boost created by the higher pressure air squeezed between the wing and the ground and it no longer has enough lift to sustain flight.



www.JustinJee.com
11-26-2008 12:22 PM
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Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

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How about seriously overloaded or the engine not developing enough power???
As far as I know, but I might be wrong, "ground effect" comes into play when your landing and not taking off! "Boost" is a new term for me in regards to taking off.
I'm curious what setting he was using for his flaps.

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"
11-26-2008 12:48 PM
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red_z06
Elite Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

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Engine power is probably same as before. Overloaded? Most definitelly. Aircrafts lifts off initially because;

Wing Lift + Ground effect (loose term but applicable) =(or greater than) AUW

It lifts up above the ground effect zone and lose the boost and no longer can sustain flight as AUW is greater than the lift generated by the wing without sufficient and immediate air speed increase to compensate for the loss of temporary lift boost.

Quote 
As far as I know, but I might be wrong, "ground effect" comes into play when your landing and not taking off!

Ground effect is anything that affects or alters the characteristic of the craft when in a proximity of the ground.

That exact setup, when it stays within the ground effect, will sustain flight for the entire duration. Unfortunately it is not realistic unless you are on a dry lake or over the ocean. There are seacrafts that do fly on the wing lift + ground effect principle. They do lift off completely above water but can't lift above the ground effect zone.

www.JustinJee.com
11-26-2008 01:01 PM
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red_z06
Elite Veteran
Location: Dumont, NJ

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Exact same thing happens with RC airplanes. They are not overloaded or the engine under powered. However, premature lift off happens below safe airspeed due to wing lift + ground effect lift boost. You often see the plane jump out of the ground and wobble and stall and crash.

www.JustinJee.com
11-26-2008 01:20 PM
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Quandumphone
Senior Heliman
Location: Yuma, AZ

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Looks like a pretty decent crosswind. Situation got worse by going off course. Had he been able to stay over the take off area, he may have been able to stay low longer to gain speed or just abort properly.
11-26-2008 01:49 PM
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Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

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Thanks for the info about ground effect, I had forgotten about the water skimming aircraft that the military's played with for a while. It wasn't taught as part of the curriculum when I learned to fly or at least I do not remember it!
Apologies to red_z06 if I sounded dubiously ignorant. (which I is!)

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"
11-26-2008 05:15 PM
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HeliFisher
Veteran
Location: Verdi , Nevadafornia

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Scary!!

Looked like they were loaded to the gills on take off. Lucky they didn't mow down 20 or 30 people in the process of crashing. Sure was enough around to maybe catch the crashing plane, stage diving style. That would be sweet!

The less a man makes a clarative statement, the less likely he is to look like a fool in retrospect.
11-26-2008 05:30 PM
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MooneyDriver
Veteran
Location: Kent, Ohio

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CG was way aft! Looks like he had too much flap in there too. I don't think the crosswind was a big issue. It was a torque issue. The pilot was not correcting properly with right rudder. Maybe his rudder trim was way off??? Guessing density altitude was yet another factor...

-Neil

Hey man, why does my lipo get bigger every time I charge it?
11-26-2008 08:54 PM
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marked23
Key Veteran
Location: Lynnwood, WA

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that's heartbreaking.
11-26-2008 09:22 PM
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cranester
Key Veteran
Location: Bogota, Colombia

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Yes this happened maybe 2 years ago.

Small correction: It's Colombia not Columbia

Juan Crane
11-26-2008 09:59 PM
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Quandumphone
Senior Heliman
Location: Yuma, AZ

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Torque and P-Factor would make it go left, not right. Also, look at the smoke after the crash. The crosswind is very apparent. One last note, the pilot was probably using soft-field technique, which would partly explain the high nose at rotation. What's supposed to happen after that is the aircraft remaining low over the runway in ground effect while it gains more speed. So, once the wheels were off the ground, the nose should have been lowered to stay a few feet above the runway. All bets were off once he veered to the right.

That said, with all the crap they put in the back, the plane was probably tail heavy and overloaded.
11-26-2008 10:28 PM
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BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Forster, New South Wales, Australia

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I seem to remember is was an emergency evacuation flight, hence the overcrowding. I also seem to remember that everyone on board died.

Tony Stott
11-28-2008 03:42 AM
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#55
Veteran
Location: Beautiful Iraq

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this ain't got nothing to do with ground-effect.

It has EVERYTHING to do with PPC.

flying 60's in the Hood
12-05-2008 06:19 PM
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Flint325
Senior Heliman
Location: Albany, New York

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Can you say density altitude?

I learned to fly inverted, I just stand on my head
12-06-2008 12:17 AM
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BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Forster, New South Wales, Australia

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An overloaded aircraft is going to fly like a brick no matter what the altitude is.

Tony Stott
12-06-2008 03:48 AM
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greenboot
Veteran
Location: St Louis, Mo

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Here is what I found...

The Cessna plane was operated by Patrulla Aérea Colombiana (Colombian Air Patrol), a non-profit organization that helps people with medical assistance on remote places of Colombia.

There was 4 people on board the Cessna: The pilot and chief of medical staff, another doctor, a little boy recently operated, and the mother of the boy. All died instantly except the pilot of this Cessna, who died a few day later due to the extensive burnings on his body from this cessna crash. It is beleived that this cessna crash is a result of the passenger stepping on the rudder pedal causeing the cessna crash after takeoff

Tom
12-06-2008 01:54 PM
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BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Forster, New South Wales, Australia

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Thanks for the clarification Tom..

Tony Stott
12-06-2008 03:23 PM
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RaptorMan23
Veteran
Location: Sioux City, IA

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Weird

There must be many explanations to this story, I saw this footage on TV one evening on a show called Maximum exposure and they said the airplane was overloaded but everyone survived?? Not saying anybody is wrong, I actually think Greenboots explanation is more believeable. I dont always think those TV shows know the whole story, I think they just make it up as they go
12-06-2008 11:14 PM
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Sam2b
Elite Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

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I also believe the flaps did not help. I'm curious if the flaps were raised up once the aircraft was about 10' off the ground if that would have helped the issue at all.

That's besides the fact this pilot does not know how to use yaw control to fix the right-slanted take off. It looked like they took off prematurely in a panic when the pilot found themselves yawing to the right and never acquired enough speed before lift off.

Of course, this is all in addition to the ground effects Ben mentioned.

_Sam B_
12-17-2008 07:55 AM
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junkpilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Summer/Alamogordo N.M. ,Winters/ Tucson

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Ground Effects?

The skid to the right says it all, The pilot jerked it off the ground with insufficient airspeed!
Junkpilot

When you fly JUNK it's hard to tell when you've crashed!
12-27-2008 08:20 PM
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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > Crash in Colombia
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