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Autography FlightPower . Advantage Hobby . Revolution Models

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e-Minicopter Joker > Kontronik Jive
 
 
fergus
Key Veteran
Location: Ireland

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I agree with Tabb on the throttle settings with the kontronik controllers. I have tested various headspeeds on the Joker with a jazz 55-10-32 without changing pinion (just adjusting the governor %) and have found no issues. I confirmed this using a wattmeter and temp gun.

I have also run near 2000rpm without issue (Joker2 not maxi)

Regards

Fergus
07-24-2008 Over year old.
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nicco
Veteran
Location: Sweden

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Jazz or PowerJazz, it do not matter, they handle part load much better than other ECS.

Actually, you get better performance on the Jazz if you have 80% or lower trottlecurve. It is better to add a tooth to the pinon and turn it down a bit, than run it 100% flat.

I had my PowerJazz on 56% and was pulling 5000W, no problem.

Same with Jazz, but there I try to stay between 75-80%.

/N
07-24-2008 Over year old.
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cwd10
Veteran
Location: PA, - U.S.A.

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"Actually, you get better performance on the Jazz if you have 80% or lower trottlecurve."

I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong about this. What you are suggesting is electrically impossible, and goes against the laws of Physics. Read the manufacturers suggestions. Plus, I have lots of data from my Eagletree recorder proving that I reduced overall power consumption, and improved flight times when changing my curve from 85% to 100%. I honestly don't even know how you could come up with such a claim, unless you have a wildly different perception of performance than the rest of us.
07-24-2008 Over year old.
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tabbytabb
Elite Veteran
Location: seattle

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He is actually correct for 3d flying where the best indicator of performance is headspeed retention through maneuvers.

At 100% the ESC will run out of headroom and drop HS under load.

If you up a tooth and drop the throttle percentage it allows the jazz's governor some headroom to keep HS constant under variable loads.


Most 3d flyers tend to dial it down a bit in governor mode for this very reason.


Tabb
07-24-2008 Over year old.
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cwd10
Veteran
Location: PA, - U.S.A.

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In a way that's true, but in the context of AP where a heavy load is carried, and there is no 3d flying going on, the efficiency curve is higher per percentage.
I'm referring to OVERALL performance, not power reserve. Totally different animal.
07-24-2008 Over year old.
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GerdSenior Heliman - Location: Vellmar/Germany - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Here is a small video from the shutdown:
http://www.minicopter.de/film/Powerjazz_Spain.avi
Paul (the pilot) means that it could also be an interference, perhaps caused from electric noise of the PJ (we had this often with the first PJ prototypes). When I watch the video sometimes he can be right, it is no typical shutdown.


Back topic now. Yesterday we had a crash with a model using a Jive 80HV. First the bad news: After checking the model and connecting battery there was a small flash like always but nothing else, no receiver current, no motor response melody, simply dead. Now the good news: Called Kontronik and probably the current limiting circuit (the "fuse" ) was activated from the crash and they can repair that (removing the red plastic and check of the PCB board). I am curious about the result.

Also during repair of the machine and replacing the Jive thru a backup controller (also Jive) it has happend one time (never say never) that the Tx was switched off first. Result: The Jive started the motor and it spooled up! For tests I always remove the complete mainrotor and the tailrotor blades, so nothing bad has happened and I could separate a battery cable. Perhaps a problem in combination with the radio. This is a Futaba T12 FASST with 608 receiver. Has anyone made similar experiences? This is a new property for me.
So be cautious, careful and concentrated and separate always after the flight first the battery from the ESC!

Seablade: Here a pic of my cooling fins. I have turned the Jive upside down. It is basically not necessary because this machine is running always "full throttle" (about 80%) with 12s, so the fins are relative small.
07-24-2008 Over year old.
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ehx
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Minnesota

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CWD10 wrote: "65% is scary low."

It probably is if you don't understand how ESCs work and that all aren't designed the exact same way. Think 100% throttle is always best? Check the manual for the Actronics 70-32 ESC which was the primary one for the Joker 1. They specifically state not to run at 100%, but at 90%, 80%, or perhaps even lower depending on the performance you want. You set the headroom here.

The Jazz and (I assume) the Jive have their "free wheeling circuit" meaning there is a much smaller penalty for partial loads then some other ESC designs. 65% on a Jazz is more efficient than 65% on a CC.

Personally with the Jazz I don't want to be up near even 90% throttle.
Lower percentages allow for more headroom and even for AP this can come in handy. With a heavy load and windy conditions, say the heli drifts a little too close to a tree and then a wind gust hits it. If you need near full collective in this type of situation it's nice that the heli doesn't bog.

As always, individual needs and setup can make all the difference. When someone tells you that you ALWAYS have to have your throttle set above 85% or some such number don't just believe them. Do a bit of checking yourself.
07-25-2008 Over year old.
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cwd10
Veteran
Location: PA, - U.S.A.

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Missing the point. Headroom is just that. It's only based on voltage. Yea, it can help but it's not necessary. I've been doing this a while. Never had any headroom issues with reserve power. Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand how ESC and electronics in particular work. I'll explain it as simply as I can. The ESC only uses the extra voltage when under spiked loads, but that's only part of the story. They also need current. There is a delay in the voltage ramp up, but little in the current ramp up. This means that there is still reserve power in the form of current instead of voltage, and it's more direct. Now, here's some basic electronics for ya: When energy is consumed, it is only really changing from one form of energy to another. When a motor turns, it is changing electrical energy to mechanical and thermal. When an ESC uses energy it is changing from electrical to another form of electrical AND thermal. Here's the rub. When the active electronics of the ESC are holding back the voltage on a varying load, the voltage has to get turned into some alternate form of energy, guess what that energy is. It's heat. Any time electrical energy is turned into heat, it is WASTED. The more voltage is held back, the more heat is generated. This is why many ESC's overheat at part throttle, but work fine at 100%. I know this has happened to many people, including myself. I guarantee, that ANY ESC follows these principals. It's just more evident on some, than others. When talking about efficiency, the way to transfer the MOST energy possible to the motor and not waste it as heat is to avoid buffering down the voltage, and let the available current do the work. Remember, we're talking about ACTIVE buffering here, not a static voltage divider. You can look these principals up in ANY electrical engineering book. I'm not making this stuff up.

Now I never said that everyone should always be running 100%. I only said that that's the most efficient. There is always a compromise, and everyone should run what they are comfortable with. I run 100% throttle on about 90% of my runs. I dail it down when conditions call for it. I have seen more than enough evidence to be conclusive on this. Believe me, it works. Try it yourself. As I said, I have had may many flights with that set-up, and never had a situation I couln't get out of. We're talking hundreds of flights here folks. For the record. Anybody that tells you that you SHOULD be running 85% or lower all the time does not understand basic electronics, let alone how an ESC really works.

FWIW, I apologize for hijacking this thread, and will no longer post here about this subject. If anybody want's to take this up any further, start another thread or PM me. OUT.
07-25-2008 Over year old.
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nicco
Veteran
Location: Sweden

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Quote 
"Actually, you get better performance on the Jazz if you have 80% or lower trottlecurve."

I'm sorry, but you are dead wrong about this. What you are suggesting is electrically impossible, and goes against the laws of Physics. Read the manufacturers suggestions. Plus, I have lots of data from my Eagletree recorder proving that I reduced overall power consumption, and improved flight times when changing my curve from 85% to 100%. I honestly don't even know how you could come up with such a claim, unless you have a wildly different perception of performance than the rest of us.

I have around 500 logged flight on difference Jazz controllers and this is a common knowledge around people that are using Jazz and Jive.

How many flights do you have with the Jazz controllers? How much have you played with different settings, pinons and motors with the Jazz? If you have played and tried buy your self, you would probably end up with the same result as me.

It might be a different approach than other controllers, but that is what makes them so good. They do not get hot under part load, so there is no waste in energy. They don't even have a heat sink...

What i mean with good performance is that it is efficient and when I give full pitch, the rpm drop (bogging) should be as little as possible.

If I use a 13t pinion and use 100% throttle, I get more bogging than if I use a 14t pinon and use 80% on the throttle curve, but I have the same headspeed from start.
07-25-2008 Over year old.
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UAVdesign
Heliman
Location: Arlington, Texas

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How brushless motor controllers work

Quote 
cwd10 wrote:
Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand how ESC and electronics in particular work. ... There is a delay in the voltage ramp up, but little in the current ramp up. ... The more voltage is held back, the more heat is generated. ... You can look these principals up in ANY electrical engineering book. I'm not making this stuff up.

For cwd10: What you say is true for linear circuits. In the case of the brushless motors and their ESCs, we are talking about a switched-mode controller with an inductive load. In this case, there is no (significant) voltage drop across the active switches when they conduct. The voltage can actually be changed very fast, it is the current that follows slowly (due to the inductve load).

The efficiency depends on the switching frequency, the transistors on resistance, the battery internal resistance, the phase commutation delay, and of course many of the motor and transmission parameters.

See the attached picture for details:



_______________________________
UAV Helicopter Project
http://arri.uta.edu/acs/pestingu/UAV/
07-25-2008 Over year old.
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visionmanHeliman - Location: Central USA - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Where can I buy the heat sink shown here???




-VisionMan
07-28-2008 Over year old.
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Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

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software for jive

I've just ordered a jive 80 hv from readiheli but i note on the german kontronic website there is new software for the jive, anyone understanding german knows whether this has any impact on the units distrubuted by readyheli? Nothing on the US site

Common sense may not be common after all
08-01-2008 Over year old.
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OICU812
rrProfessor
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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I wish Kontronik would get on top of this over current issue with the HV Jives, its really annoying me they are ignoring it.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
08-06-2008 Over year old.
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Gerd
Senior Heliman
Location: Vellmar/Germany

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Kontronik has added a starting routine that measures first the inductivity of the motor. With modern batteries in combination with high turning outrunners it has happened often in the past that in switched mode the current peaks in the power device of the controller were so high that this unit could be damaged. To avoid such damages they have added this routine. If now the inductivity is too low the controller does not start. So some certain motor types with low inductivity did not start with the first versions and the LED was blinking three times. In a later version they have increased this value that this does not more happen. The result is that no Jive was damaged up today. [all this free translated and only the essentials]

OK, small annotation: Got the Jive back with the service note: "Nothing defective, software reset done" and the Jive is running now like before

The heatsink I have purchased in an electronic shop, it is for cooling parts on a computer mainboard.
08-06-2008 Over year old.
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misskimo
Key Veteran
Location: Alaska 13 years before , mississippi for 31 y

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hey , well I sure hope the one I will get will hold out. I will slap on the 11t pinion and run it wide open then
have a good day , and night night , time for bed

Team X-Era ,Team ThunderPower, Minicopter & Spartan Gyros
08-06-2008 Over year old.
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Gerd
Senior Heliman
Location: Vellmar/Germany

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Here the latest experience: After each "abrupt motor stop" you should do a "Reset" when the Jive seems to be dead. Therefore you need the "Prog-Card 2" (2!), plug the master motor cable in the card and activate the left bottom LED ("load defaults" ). After that the Jive is (probably) running as well as before.
08-07-2008 Over year old.
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Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

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Hi Gerd

I've posted this on another site but can't find the solution to how to be sure i have the latest software for jive 80 hv. My esc label has handwritten 6:4 that's the only indication i have

Common sense may not be common after all
08-08-2008 Over year old.
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Gerd
Senior Heliman
Location: Vellmar/Germany

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Yes, 6i4 is the latest version. See upside pic of the Jive one page before.

And a new information I got from Kontronik: You do not need a Prog-Card in each case for a software reset. Simply plug in the battery and pull out the jumper, after one single beed give full throttle and wait four answer tone, then separate battery and connect again (with miniumum throttle).
08-08-2008 Over year old.
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Stolla
Senior Heliman
Location: Port elizabeth South Africa

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Thanks Gerd good news!

Common sense may not be common after all
08-08-2008 Over year old.
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rroback
Elite Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

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Will the Jive HV handle 14s a123?

Rhett..... I can't fly, but the Profi sure can.
08-08-2008 Over year old.
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