RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - Kontronik Jive

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e-Minicopter Joker > Kontronik Jive

Gerd

Senior Heliman - Location: Vellmar/Germany - My Posts This: Topic Forum

I start this new topic because soon a lot of experience is available to share here and perhaps something is different to the Jazz.

The first I will mention here is the difference of the ProgCards from Kontronik.

Note:
- Prog-Card 1 is for Power-Jazz and absolutely necessary for using the PowerJazz in Helicopters.
- Prog-Card 2 is for Jive series only and basically not necessary.

With ProgCard 2 you can adjust the BEC voltage between 5.0 to 6.0 Volts and the response on fast Pitch moving. It is recommended to order the BEC cable for programming, this cable you can use then as second current cable between Jive and receiver.

Here a pic from the Prog-Card 2. Seems that Kontronik likes this red plastic:

And this is the second (optional) BEC-cable:

07-22-2008 Over year old.

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rroback
Elite Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

My Posts This: Topic Forum

Have you tested it on 12s setups, with the pletti and actros? I have to get one of these soon. Bec can handle all digital servos and tail, on 12s, right?

Rhett..... I can't fly, but the Profi sure can.

07-23-2008 Over year old.

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JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

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Thanks for the info Gerd.

Do you know when the HV version will be generally available ?. Have you been using one yet ? - what do you think ?.

The options look a bit more involved than the powerjazz. Can you put your recommended settings up in this thread for an AP Joker when you have them ?.

JohnC

07-23-2008 Over year old.

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rroback
Elite Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

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I know Gerd has the 80 HV version in stock....

Rhett..... I can't fly, but the Profi sure can.

07-23-2008 Over year old.

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Gerd
Senior Heliman
Location: Vellmar/Germany

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Kontronik tries always with new products to deliver all dealers fair. So they send first only some pieces to each, then some days later you get the next part of your order and so on. The result is that one day some are in stock and the other day they are out. This situation will become better earliest in some weeks.
Yes, we just test them with 12s and BEC without buffer battery with V-Stabi (such electronics draw more amps because swash servos are working more often) and three S9451 and S9254. This is a 3D model. But for AP I would add a small battery

Setup: We use the stock setup, no modificaations necessary in my opinion. If you have components with narrow fixed voltage you must perhaps reduce the voltage of the BEC, but currently all is fine.

Motors: Currently actro 32-3 and the prototype of a new motor.

07-23-2008 Over year old.

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JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

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mmm .... I see it's not much cheaper than the powerjazz.

I think it will be better to use on a normal Joker cameraship and stick with the powerjazz for a heavy maxi. I want an alternative to the 55-10-32 because I've had 2 of these fail for no good reason and know they have a tendency to shut down if you use them in a hot climate on a heavy ship.

I think I will wait a while before trying one out just in case it goes through the same fiasco as the early powerjazz models. If you get one, please keep us all informed as to how it holds up.

JohnC.

07-23-2008 Over year old.

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Gerd

Senior Heliman - Location: Vellmar/Germany - My Posts This: Topic Forum

I do not believe that the PowerJazz is more safe than the Jive. It is big, of course. But this seems to be no warranty against shutdowns. When you need a PowerJazz shutdown in a 6kg Maxi with actro 24-5 filmed with an onboard camera you can get it. This has happened with a production from may 2007. Air temperature there was 31°C (90°F).

Here two close-ups from the Jive:

On the downside is a flat aluminium surface where you can remove heat either pressing it on a metal surface like an U-profile or mounting a cooling cap with/without fan.
Nearby: The measured weight out of the box is 104 grams.

07-23-2008 Over year old.

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tabbytabb
Elite Veteran
Location: seattle

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Can you give more details on the powerjazz shutdown?

I have mine loaded up to 27lbs and have not been able to get them to shut down. Using both 25-5 and 32-4s. Do you have any more info on the battery setup and average current draw? Blades that were used?

Thanks

Jive looks like a great ESC, but bummer it is almost as much as the powerjazz

Tabb

07-23-2008 Over year old.

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Seablade
Key Veteran
Location: floating around

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Quote
a flat aluminium surface where you can remove heat either pressing it on a metal surface like an U-profile or mounting a cooling cap with/without fan.

Just a clarification Gerd, (it's just cultural linquistics), by "cooling cap" do you mean cooling fins like a heatsink used on computer chips?

Thanks.

The nice thing I like about it is if you did put a cooling fins on it you can mount them length-wise or cross-wise to take advantage of how you mounted in relation to the airflow around it.
For example, if you mounted on the side of a fuselage horizontally the cooling fins could be cross-wise to take advantage of the airflow coming down from the main rotor.

"Vini, Vidi, Velcro"

07-23-2008 Over year old.

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Gerd
Senior Heliman
Location: Vellmar/Germany

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Yes, cooling fins. The best is you use long finger fins that are milled twice 90 degree cross, the air then can blow from above, front or cross.

Tabb: It was a customer from Spain. I have visited him during a vacation last year. I have sent him a mail with your questions.
When I remember right he had FP 10s/4p 8000 packs and stock blades #1030. Current? 30 amps perhaps.

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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JohnC
Veteran
Location: East Yorkshire, England

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That's intersting to know Gerd. I have never heard another case of the powerjazz shutting down.

I have a customer (you know who) in a tropical location which is very hot and very humid and his 55-10-32 would shutdown with an 8Kg maxi after a minute or so every time.

Recently he did 50 flights up to 3,000 feet AGL in 12 days and has never had a single issue with the Powerjazz.

I hope you're right about the Jive being as reliable : less weight is always better.

Do you know if the Spanish guy was running the right pinion/headspeed for the maxi ?.

JohnC.

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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windmania
Senior Heliman
Location: Palm Beaches, FL

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I was flying the Maxi with the Pletty, 13 tooth pinion, headspeed around 1380-1400 and 10S2P 8500mah packs with a nine pound mount a couple months ago. The weather was humid and and about 90 degrees.

I was shooting panos over water when the ESC shutdown and had to auto in. I did not know what happened so I changed my packs and went up again. After about a minute or so it happened again. I packed up and went home to try figure what was happening.

When I realized it was shutting down to heat I cut a huge hole in the canopy to allow more air to circulate. Knock on wood - It has worked fine since.

Now I know I am not the only one with this issue....

On a side note - I recently switched to flybarless and can not get my headspeed below 1430 with a 75% throttle curve. Do you think a 12 tooth pinion will make any difference? I will like to get the curve in the 90% range.

Thanks

Rael

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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rroback
Elite Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

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Did the fan kick on?

Rhett..... I can't fly, but the Profi sure can.

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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cwd10
Veteran
Location: PA, - U.S.A.

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windmania

You did not mention what ESC you are using, but I have some advice for you. In general you should not fly with a constant 75% curve, no matter what kind of ESC you are using. This is very hard on ESC's, and will cause an unnecessary overheat condition, as well as decreased efficiency. Especially when carrying an AP load. The general rule is to stick to 85% or more. If you can't maintain that with your current gear ratio vs headspeed, change the pinion. You will gain efficiency and lengthen the life of your ESC for sure.

I fly a heavy AP Joker as well, but I have my ESC at 100% all the time. My motor has never gone above 115 degrees, and my ESC never above 100. Even on a hot, humid day. I've been glitch free ever since the day I set my curve to 100%. Plus, my flight times increased. Win, win situation. And the kicker is, I'm still using an old Jazz 55-10-32.

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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tabbytabb
Elite Veteran
Location: seattle

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CWD,

Just for another data point I am dialing down my powerjazz to around 65% for over a year now with no issues, flying in 100 degree heat with up to a 27lb auw. I think the powerjazz's seem to handle the partial load just fine as long as you watch your flying style. I really dont do hard climbouts or super aggressive maneuvers with the heavier ships.

I agree with you in principle but often times when running 12s or higher you have to dial it down in the ESC if the gearing isnt available.

Tabb

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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windmania
Senior Heliman
Location: Palm Beaches, FL

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CWD10 -

I am using the Power Jazz 55-10-32 ESC. Previously, my throttle curve wa at 85% with a headspeed around 1380 with the 13 tooth pinion. Ever since I removed the flybar the headspeed has increased. I just installed a 12 tooth pinion, which is the smallest available, but have not tested it yet.

Is one tooth going to make any difference? Going from a 13 to a 12??

thanks..

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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rroback
Elite Veteran
Location: Irvine (UCI), Ca

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The 55-10-32 isn't a power jazz, it's just the regular jazz. The powerjazz is the monster, with the heatsink and fan. Is yours red and small, or black/heatsink/fan?

Changing by one tooth does make a difference.

Rhett..... I can't fly, but the Profi sure can.

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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cwd10
Veteran
Location: PA, - U.S.A.

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tabbytabb:
I agree. Sometimes you can't always do things the absolute best way and you have to compromise. I know the Powerjazz can handle it better than others, but I would still be careful. 65% is scary low. At best, you are wasting a lot of energy. At worst, you will have a pre-mature failure. I know you're confident in it now, but just wait.

windmania:
Yes, one tooth can make a lot of difference. Try it. Also, don't be afraid of a little higher headspeed. I run my Radix 710's at around 1450 to 1550, and it runs great. Smooooth and only 18 to 20 amps at hover. I have been checking the holes in the blades and find no evidence of stress or elongation. Bolts are straight as an arrow as well. Your mileage may vary.

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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tabbytabb
Elite Veteran
Location: seattle

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Just for reference you can run 710s much higher then 1500. I have run them up to 2000 without a problem on the joker. I know of folks running 800s at 1500 without a problem.

Also, there are many others besides myself running the powerjazz at lower percentages with great results, as far as wasting power i think you are overestimating the amount of energy lost by running lower throttle percentages. I have one of the most efficient joker maxi setups I have heard of at around 31 watts/lb. The jazz does a remarkable job of partial throttle modulation.

I am confident in it because if has performed flawlessly all over the world in temps from 0 degrees to 110 with payloads ranging from 5 to 15 lbs. This isn't something I just threw together, this is a finely tuned setup that has had thousands of flights.

Windmania 1380 at 85% sounds just about right to me. Dropping to a 12T will drop your HS about 8% or so down to about 1270 assuming the same throttle setting. I find the maxi likes 1300 plus depending on payload.

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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windmania
Senior Heliman
Location: Palm Beaches, FL

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Rhett - you are correct, it's the Jazz 55-10-32.

Tabb - thanks for the info, will be testing tomorrow.

07-24-2008 Over year old.

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e-Minicopter Joker > Kontronik Jive

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