RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - Anybody have this happen to a RJX part?

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RJX Hobby Hurrican 50 - Xtreme 50 > Anybody have this happen to a RJX part?

billm
Elite Veteran
Location: Liberty Lake, WA

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Just wondering if any of you that are using RJX Blings have had this happen.
I was flying my Pantera and right after a hard "punch out" the bird lost all tracking. I was able to get down (hard landing and picked up the broken bits.
Back in the shop (man land) I started putting together the dreaded shopping list to repair my bird. I found the root of the crash.
The ball link ripped out of the see saw arm. I thought at first that it just backed out. I did loctite the sucker in and found loctite still on the threads of the ball. Then I looked at the arm. Where did the threads go? It's all bent up as well. The Ball ripped right out of threads. Loctite would have been no help in this cundrum.
If you look at the pics. The threads are gone, and the hole is no longer round! Total breakdown.

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic

01-29-2007 Over year old.

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billm
Elite Veteran
Location: Liberty Lake, WA

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Impact was the result of a blade going bonkers.
Lets review. things are flying around SOP. I did a punch out. Hmm what kind of things go on with a punch out.
1. collective is smashed full positive.
2. Throttle goes full bore.
3. Blades responde to input via swash, and pitch arms.
4. Chopper goes up in the air at a high rate of speed.
Now the 5 whys of the crash.
1. Chopper hit ground. (why?)
2. Blades went out of track. (why?)
3. Something cut loose during flight. (Why?)
4. Pitch arm did not controll blade. (Why?)
5. Ball link fell off of SS arm that controls main blade.
looking at the crash site.
1. Pitch arm bent. is it crash damage? Canopy did not come off. No other head damage noticed. The ship landed on it's skids.
2. Ball link is off of SS arm. no other damage noted in the head assy.
3. Did the ball walk out of it's threads? NO! Found stripped threads on the SS arm, ball link still shows loctite on the thread. canopy and head intact. If the impact would kill the ss arm durring impact. one would think that the canopy and head would be toast.
4. Binding with the link before flying. NO. Setup showed no problems.
If binding with the SS arm was an issue this would point to a ball link not installed per SOP
Results.
SS arm failure resulting in main blade fluttering due to ball link ripping out of mounting surface and resulting in uncontrolled crash. $$$$

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic

01-29-2007 Over year old.

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scoyle
Senior Heliman
Location: IL

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One day this fall, I had noticed my blade tracking on the T50 was out by 1/2" so I sat her down to investigate. In my case a ball link was halfway unscrewed from one seesaw arm. Maybe I forgot to loctite it (??) In this case it was a KSJ purple seesaw arm but the tracking symptoms sound similiar only yours eventually went all the way out to an uncontrolled situation.

--Scott

01-29-2007 Over year old.

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Foxden
Elite Veteran
Location: Port Charlotte, FL. USA

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Bill

I remember you had a crash with Pantera 1 not too long ago, did you go through the entire head and check all the bits for tightness after rebuilding??? it may have loosen up considering it was hard enough to crack a main frame, struts, spindle, and main shaft, a crash may have loosend up the loctite enough with the sub zero temps your flying in. I know plastic tends to get very brittle in that extreme cold as well.

Quote

CRASH

I was flying my Pantera. Then the motor leaned out and died.
I was able to auto unitll 10 feet above the ground. I noticed my Head Speed was nill. I stuffed a bit ot neg and the a quick blip of positive. It hit the snow what I thought was soft.
NTSB showed up and we have more damage then first thought.
Main frame cracked, Radio tray toast, Cf blade delamed, Main struts gone, Suspect tail, and main spindles. Main mast is on the hit parade.
The good news is that I called JB!
Lynn was very nice...even after my second call for parts.
The rest of the day I flew the Tiger. Big diff gang!
Now when I try my Tic Tocs with Tiger vs Panter?
The Cat is really really mad!
Parts comming, and the Pantera II will be ariving soon.

Clyde Fox
Port Charlotte FL
Team Outrage

01-29-2007 Over year old.

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billm
Elite Veteran
Location: Liberty Lake, WA

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This was metal on metal.
Yes after the crash the head was torn down. Inspected and put back together. Loctite and all.
I also noticed that the arms are bent. I'm concerned about what grade of material was used. Aircraft grade?

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic

01-29-2007 Over year old.

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scoyle
Senior Heliman
Location: IL

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Helibrite, don't you have any desire to have your engineer look at why the part "may" have failed rather than make snide remarks about plastic parts he could have used? I would be certain the plastic would break in a crash, but that is not what is being questioned here. Did the part let loose of the screw in flight? Something caused the blades to go severely out of track resulting in a hard landing. He couldn't find anything else wrong so what caused the initial problem? If there is a chance the seesaw arm was stressed in a prior crash, is there a way to inspect for that, or should the RJX seesaw arms be replaced after each crash as good practice. Please give Bill the benefit of the doubt.

--Scott

01-30-2007 Over year old.

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Foxden
Elite Veteran
Location: Port Charlotte, FL. USA

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After a crash how many of you actually check the balls in the washout, seesaw, or swashplate to make sure they are still tight, or remove them and reapply locktite? I've had my share of grass gremlins reachin up and grabbing ahold of my heli

but I usually just check the bearings and arms to make sure they didn't loosen up or shows signs of damage and too be honest I generally check the rods and balls to make sure they move freely but I don't or haven't checked them to make sure they are tight, I think I'll add that to my pre-flight and weekly maintenance routine.

Scott,
Why would RjX want to have an engineer look at one part that was already exposed to additional stress beyond the limits it was designed for because of the first crash, this really wouldn't identify a concern as now there is no way of telling what the original crash may have done to the part, a visual inspection of the part could not reveal inner stress or if the part had been weakened by the crash.

Clyde Fox
Port Charlotte FL
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01-30-2007 Over year old.

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Walleye
Senior Heliman
Location: Minnetonka, MN

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Cant wait till 40 degrees plus...

01-30-2007 Over year old.

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scoyle
Senior Heliman
Location: IL

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Quote
Why would RjX want to have an engineer look at one part

A screw pulling out of an aluminum seesaw arm (taking the threads with it) is very uncommon, so I would think that maybe RJX would want to have it checked out. Maybe a bad batch were poured, maybe there is a way to improve the design. Engineers love feedback like that + it lets the customer know they care. For every reported incident there are probably a dozen unheard of so why not strike at the chance to get to root cause, especially as RJX are trying to make inroads into the US market.

--Scott

01-30-2007 Over year old.

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Helimike
Senior Heliman
Location: Raymore Missouri USA

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I wan't to know where to buy metal see saw arms to so I can test themm too!

Seriously who sells and wnd where to buy.
michael

K.I.S.S.

01-30-2007 Over year old.

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timnash
Heliman
Location: alabaster, alabama

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that arm looks to me to have had a loose ball on it. It looks just like one of mine that I "tested"(also known as I forgot to tighten)was not an rjx part and not on a pantera but the outcome looks almost identical.

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scoyle
Senior Heliman
Location: IL

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Tim,

Now that makes complete sense and that is something that may be determined by analyzing the arm. If for example the ball was loose by 3 turns then there will be 3 threads at the bottom of the hole (to the depth of the screw when tightened) that wouldn't have been ripped clean when it gave way. Of course that assumes the screw didn't go all the way through

--Scott

01-30-2007 Over year old.

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Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

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What troubles me is the instant reply from Helibrite that the part is fine, it couldn't be the part, there are thousands of them without the problem. That's not how you service a customer. You immediately say that it was unfortunate, and that as the distributor, you would like to get the part back to determine if it was at fault. Coming on with a condescending:

Quote
If you are really concerned about the material not being up to grade (which I highly doubt) in that arm send it to me and I'll have it checked out.

after numerous "couldn't be me!" posts is BS. Go do a search for posts from Jeff Green, and learn how to support a customer. Instead of immediately assuming that he screwed up, get the part back and be sure before you talk down to a paying customer. If you want to take that tact (like so many do), at least have the good sense to do it privately. And this is coming from someone who agrees with Helibrite that it was most likely user error.

Nick Crego

01-31-2007 Over year old.

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billm
Elite Veteran
Location: Liberty Lake, WA

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Thanks for all the input from the RR jury.
I asked if anybody had this happen? The answer was everything is fine and I am an idiot! Like I typed before. After the first crash I did a tear down of the head. Inspected everything and then the rebuild. If the ball had worked its way out (think about this gang) how in the hell could I get a link on it in first place, and not notice it! So the jury is telling me that a ball will work it's way out in 30sec of flight? Lets say that no locktite was used in the build. Your telling me that the ball would work it's way out in less then 30 seconds? Wow, that sounds a bit alarming.
There is always that fluke failure of a ball tearing out, and maybe i'm it. This post started out with a question. The tread is now showing the true colors of a few people. It took a few posts before the tune was changed to total not me, to going into fire fighting mode.
Like I said. The RR jury has ruled that I don't know what I'm doing.
Well I hope the next time you take a ride with me in 270 Turbo, or I pack your parachute for a jump at ten thousand feet. You don't have the cyber jury looking over my work. If that was the case. My Skydiving days would be over, and sitting in the left seat would be nill...Give me some credit here!

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic

01-31-2007 Over year old.

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Eury
rrProfessor
Location: Ankeny, IA, USA.

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Bill, I never said you are an idiot, just that in cases like this, it's usually user error. That said, I'd take any RJX part on the heli and throw it away, just based on Helibrite's response, because clearly he's adopted the "Customer is always wrong" philosophy, and that is not a philosophy that wins customers.

Nick Crego

01-31-2007 Over year old.

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Apples
Senior Heliman
Location: Brooklyn, New York

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FWIW - Wouldn't it have been simple enough to call, or, to e-mail Helibrite (RJX) with your concerns, FIRST, before looking for answers on RR?

01-31-2007 Over year old.

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tim tompkins
Veteran
Location: Boston, Georgia sw Ga. Thomas County

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With the hex head it could have been over tightened. I know of several guys that I have found to over tighten these aluminum bits. The plastic makes people less likely to lean on them. In normal flight there isn't really much stress on the arm there. Lots of manufactures use a 2 mm self tapper into plastic. Over tightening would result in failure looking like this one. Threads still rapped around the fastener and surrounding metal pulled out in a clump. Just my opinion. TimT

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Foxden
Elite Veteran
Location: Port Charlotte, FL. USA

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There is one point that everyone seems to be missing here, and Bill I don't think anyone is doubting your building skills, but the heli was already in a crash, therfore any part that may have failed causing the hard impact is questionable, you also gave your six sigma review breakdown and mentioned that you gave it some hard collective pumps with full torque on the engine, that is certainly a stress test in my book, ask Tim Tompkins about the stress loads that Steven puts on his heli.

You've also got the very same seesaw arm on your Tiger and it seems to be performing fine under the same weather conditions and I don't racall you reporting that you had a crash with the Tiger and from reading your posts you seem to be throwing it around pretty good leaning me to think the crash may have caused some not noticible damage.

Something else I noticed in the picture of the flybar control arm, it appears that the screw holding the seesaw arm to the seesaw is loose, the back of the arm should be tight against the seesaw and the RjX metal seesaw arm is installed backwards, the extensions that the balls screw into should be facing the seesaw your picture shows it facing away, this could easily cause a pulling effect because the ball connection to the seesaw is at a greater angle

I think it could have been handled differently by just contacting Helibrite and working it out instead of doing it in an open forum.

just my .02

Here are 2 pics of a Hurrican metal head and a Pantera head both showing the seesaw arms with the ball extenions facing in towards the seesaw.

Clyde Fox
Port Charlotte FL
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01-31-2007 Over year old.

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billm
Elite Veteran
Location: Liberty Lake, WA

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Clyde,
I do not have RJX SS on the tiger.
Pay attention before you get on your pogo stick!

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic

01-31-2007 Over year old.

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Foxden
Elite Veteran
Location: Port Charlotte, FL. USA

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Bill,

Sorry I thought you purchased a set for your Tiger, regardless you have it mounted backwards on your crashed Pantera!!!!

Clyde Fox
Port Charlotte FL
Team Outrage

01-31-2007 Over year old.

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