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Off Topics > Pinewood Derby Tips
 
 
fromme2u
Veteran
Location: St. Louis, MO originally. Now in Jacksonville, FL

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My son is getting ready to do his Pinewood Derby this weekend for the Cubscouts. Is there anybody out there that has any good tips they can lend so he can kick butt and take names. The first year we did it we came in last, and last year we came in forth. Both years we had about 10 racers out of our Den. He is really itching for a first place victory this year. Any tips or tricks will be greatly appreciated.


Chad

Naval Aviation...College Degree to Break 'em...
High School Diploma to Fix 'em
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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Hughes500Pilot
Key Veteran
Location: Anaheim, CA

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Just a few pointers...

1. Go to the store and buy a few extra bags of wheels and axels. Use the axles that are formed the best and most straight.

2. Smooth the axels and get the burs of the shaft with a finhgernail file.

3. Go through the wheels and find ones that are most round and fit on the axel the best.

4. Dont "nail in" the axles. You should push them straight down into the wood. Glue the axles to the wood. Dont get any glue on the axel!!!!!

5. Use dry graphite to lube the wheels/axels. Dont be pretty... Just flood it on. The more the better. Any excess will just fall out.

6. Be sure to weigh your car on a good scale. You want it to weigh exactly 5 ounces. Put all of your weight in the very, very back of the car. This gives it more ramp time.

7. Buy a book called PINEWOOD DERBY SPEED SECRETS by David Meade, Fox Chapel Publishing. It's about $10. It has excellent instructions with outstanding color photos of how to make a winning car. Worth every penny.



Lastly, sure you can but pre-trued and run in axel set. But for $40 it's expensive. Plus you are not doing the work yourself. So stay off the internet Pinewood Derby sites.

-Steve
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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Kokamo
Senior Heliman
Location: Liberty Hill Tx

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Somehow finiggle some ball bearing axles to the wheels. Don't know much about the derby races, what are the rules?
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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derek533
Senior Heliman
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma

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Well, one thing that I did when I was a kid, was win pinewood derbys. I had over 30 trophies (pack, division, regional and state) and was the state champ two years in a row for the cub scouts.

The best thing that you can do to make your car the fastest, is to take the axles and buff them with jeweler's rouge. Use the maroon colored rouge. Don't worry about making it the best looking car there. Just a simple wedge shape will do. The main thing, is to buff those axles like crazy. I promise you, if you do this, your son will have a great time. Also, don't let anyone touch your wheels and axles after you buff them. Get them mounted and leave them alone. This includes you and your son touching them as well. When they race, have your son go to the end of the lane and have him stop the car with the palm of his hand (it won't hurt I promise) but do not touch those axles. You want them to stay like you just buffed them a few minutes ago.

Finally, to get the weight to five ounces, drill holes in the bottom of the car and pour hot lead into the holes until the weight is right. If you get too much, just drill it out. This way, you won't have to tape washers to your car to the get the weight right and it will make for a better balanced car.

Good luck and let us know how he does.
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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Markerbeacon
Key Veteran
Location: N.E. Iowa

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My son and I were involved in 3 or 4 races while he was in scouts. Each year we finished better than the year before. By the time his last year in scouts had arrived, we finally had it figured out. Take the advice of Hughes500Pilot for sure, but also try the following. When filing your axels, chuck them in a dremmel tool. This way you won't file any flat spots on them. Also, when done filing, polish the crap out of them with some fine compond. Also, I think aerodynamic drag does come into play. Our last car was VERY streamlined. Not a square corner on it (except for the bottom of the car). Very low profile. I didn't get real fancy with the paint. Kept it simple. Stained it and gave it a good clear coat, sanding between coats. Not one single place for an air molicule to dig in and cause drag. Give it a roll on a flat hard surface to make sure it rolls straight ahead, doesn't pull one way or the other. We won very easy with this car. It was worth the time spent to get that winning car. The look on my son's face - priceless. The look on the other father's faces brought a smile to my face too

Good luck! Let us know how the race comes out!

-Mark
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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bmcgrady
Senior Heliman
Location: Sylacauga, AL

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Quote 
Somehow finiggle some ball bearing axles to the wheels. Don't know much about the derby races, what are the rules?

That's one of the rules... no bearings in the wheels!

Actually they're pretty strict about not using anything other than official BSA parts, and about not adding bearings and stuff like that. Hughes500 had some good pointers... I agree to stick as close to weight as possible, since the heavier it is the faster is should roll. Just don't go over on the weight. I'd also recommend keeping it as low as possible. You don't want a jacked up four wheeler! Keep it as low as possible to the ground, while still keep enough clearance for the track. If you end up having to add lead weight (and you probably will) add it to the bottom, nearer to the rear tires than the front. It's not a bad idea too when you add weight to engineer it so that at least some of it is removable... that way, if you end up being overweight, you can quickly and easily remove a bit of it. Finally, before you go to the meet, take the time to drop by the post office and get them to weight it for you... they'll typically do it gladly. That should reduce any surprises on the weight.
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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fromme2u
Veteran
Location: St. Louis, MO originally. Now in Jacksonville, FL

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Basic rules are as follows for our Pack:

Quote 
Must be made from an official BSA kit. Either the block or the new wedge kits.

Not the ones at LHSs.

Quote 
Official BSA axles and wheels must be used. Wheels and axles may be lightly sanded to remove imperfections, but any change to the overall diameter, shape, or removal of material such as treading or slotting is prohibitted. No hubcaps or stickers may be placed on the wheel.

I guess people have tried to seal in graphite so it won't come out of the wheel.

Quote 
Only dry lubricate can be used.

Graphite or equivelant

Quote 
Cars can not weigh more tha 5oz.

Cars cannot exceed the dimensions of 7"Lx2 3/4"W. Width between the wheels must be 1 3/4" and bottom clearance must be 3/8"

Axles must be attached to the block of wood. No suspensions or rolling axles. No bushings, washers, spacers, etc can be used.

Basically, nail through wheel and into the wood.

Quote 
No starting devices may be used. All cars must be gravity started.

I guess people have tried to add sticky stuff to the front of the car so when the pin is dropped, it actually pulls the car and slingshots it down the track.

Thanks for the help.

Chad

Naval Aviation...College Degree to Break 'em...
High School Diploma to Fix 'em
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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fromme2u
Veteran
Location: St. Louis, MO originally. Now in Jacksonville, FL

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I've heard about the weight in the back and am planning on that. I've also heard about "soaking or marinating" the axles in graphite. Will this actually help? It's dry will it actually cause more to stick to the axle? Heard the same about the wheels. Here's what I've done so far:

I removed all burrs and polished the axles with 400 grit and before the meet I am planning on going and getting some 1000 grit sandpaper. Probably tonight. The meet is on Saturday.

I put graphite inside the wheels and now have it "soaking".

I also got the axles soaking but will need to redo that after I use the 1000 grit sand paper.

I got the car cut out and it now waiting paint.

I trued up the wheels and shaved the inner side where the axle goes through so it is tapered. I also tapered the head of the axles so not as much will touch the wheel.

Getting ready to go to Wally World to get paint and sandpaper.

He said he wants an EVO 50 paint job. How cool is that? I will post pics when we're done.

Chad

Naval Aviation...College Degree to Break 'em...
High School Diploma to Fix 'em
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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helibandit
Senior Heliman
Location: Jacksonville, North Carolina - United States

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hmmmmi have found myself that the MORE graphite used the crappyer the wheels spin. its like they get gummy. thats just my experience. i have found a few simple things that has always brought us to first place. melted lead in the drilled holes to exactly 5 OZ overall weight. use a fine flat file right where the shank meets the head of the nail (axle) as there are usually burrs right there. the turn the nails in a drill and use emory cloth and then some fine sanding powder to polish the axles. then make or buy a wheel finnishing kit (consists of an axle that locks the wheel on it and then mounts into a drill. while the plastic (BSA aproved) wheel is turning in the drill take some high grit sand paper and smooth the wheel surface until there are no imperfections. mount the wheels with your thumb and adjust so all 4 wheels touch the ground evenly and so when you spin them they keep spinning long after. (without graphite) if the wheel wobbles/vibrates or slows down rapidly either adjust them tighter or looser or change the wheel out. also i personaly think centering or spreading the weight out works the best because it creats even weight and friction on all 4 wheels.

The only time you can have too much fuel is when your on fire
01-15-2007 Over year old.
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rickc
Elite Veteran
Location: Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

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My son won several over all championships in our area. First build a wedge, add all the weight to make the car a hair over 5 oz, We used lead putty and dug the needed amount out at each weigh in to pass on the scale they used at the event, dig some out and weigh, dig some out and weigh, dig some out and weigh, you get the picture. Make an event of it, do it when there is a line behind you waiting to weigh in. The inspector will finally get tired of you and pass you with possibly a fraction of a gram over. Make the CG of the car about a 1/4 inch in front of the leading edge of the rear tires. This keeps the weight on the slope the longest time.

You want to run only 3 wheels contacting the track also, make one of your front wheels sit 1/16 off of the track, this is less friction as your car travels down the track but still allows your car to ride the guide rail ok, also make your front axles as far forward as you can but don't let the front of the wheels stick out past the front of the body, do the same with the rear. This makes the front and back wheels the farthest away from each other, thus reducing the amount of times the guide rail can contact the inside of the wheels as it travels down the track.

As your son sits his car on the track, have him pull his wheels out to widen the wheel base as much as possible, centering the guide rail under the car, this will allow the car to travel the farthest before making a contact with the guide rail.

As far as the axles go, do as other have posted, polish, polish , polish. Use powered graphite. Make sure the axles are perfectly installed 90 degrees to the body. No toe in or toe out wanted. True up your wheels.

Show us a picture of his trophy.....

Rick
01-16-2007 Over year old.
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himaxkeith
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlantic City NJ. USA

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sounds like everybody gave some good pointers. when you polish the nails make sure you do the back side of the head of the nail also use dri graphite. if you put the nail in a drill press or just a drill works pretty good for polishing. another dirty trick to do is set one of the front axels around just slightly higher so when the car runs down the track it rides on three wheels. less resistance. if you have excess to a track to do some test runs you can experiment a little. the car should be the fastest after the seconed or third run .first year of the derby is uasually just for fun the seconed year is uasually a all out battle againest the other dads.most of all just have fun it will be memories for a long time.
01-16-2007 Over year old.
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midwestpilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Crystal Lake, IL

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care full there..

they are hip to 3 wheels.. don't allow it.. all four must touch and the entire width of the wheel must touch...ie no angled wheels.

I would be nervous about shaving any part of the axle or wheel where the axle pokes through... don't get caught.

use a drill press to drill pilot wholes for the axles.. perfectly square to the body and as stated press them in. I have found that you can use your drill press as a part press... put a rather large drill bit in upside down so the butt of the drill sticks out of the drill press then use it(no power on!!) to press in the axle.

polish the crap out of the axles

In life there is no spacebar!

Rich Erikson AMA 6175
01-16-2007 Over year old.
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FLYINFOOL
Key Veteran
Location: Cudahy, WI

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If you can find it use a milling machine to drill the axle holes to be sure that they are perfectly straight, next choice would be a drill press.
The front of the body should be angled out and up. as in the top sticks out farther than the bottom. It is not as good aerodynamically but since the starting gate normally tips forward it will allow the car to start moving sooner. When you start running with the big dogs that 1/8 inch head start is often the difference between places.

400 or 1000 grit paper is not polishing, that is rough grinding compared to what we are talking about.

Also be sure to remove any rough spots on the inside edge of the wheel where it will rub on the guide strip.


Jeff Borowski
Gohbee Field Rep
01-16-2007 Over year old.
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fromme2u
Veteran
Location: St. Louis, MO originally. Now in Jacksonville, FL

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Our Pack is pretty strict with the 3 wheel thing. I have read that numerous times and wish I could do it but it is a NO NO. However, the camber of the wheels is not. That is actually allowed. As far as drilling the axle holes, we have to use the BSA blocks that are already in the wood. That's so we can't change the wheel base or the placement of the wheels. It doens't matter which way the wood is turned as to which is front and which is rear. As you can see in the pics the axle channels are different distances from the ends of the block. I have the farthest channel as the front and the closest to the rear. Hear are some pics of the Championship Car in the making...

These two are of my son Rob airbrushing for the first time...


Here are some close ups of it...


Let me know what you think. Hey it's not pretty but winning is what the goal is. LOL

Chad

Naval Aviation...College Degree to Break 'em...
High School Diploma to Fix 'em
01-16-2007 Over year old.
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fromme2u
Veteran
Location: St. Louis, MO originally. Now in Jacksonville, FL

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Trials held...

...and we kicked arse. Had to adjust the weight a little because my scale was off from the official scale but even after taking weight off, we were still consistently coming in first against most of the other cars from the Pack. He came in first 100% of the time against the cars in our den. I have a feeling we will be going to the district races this year. Man, I cannot wait till tomorrow morning. Thanks for all the tips. We'll let you know how it goes tomorrow afternoon.

Here are some pics of the car after the paint job.

Chad



Naval Aviation...College Degree to Break 'em...
High School Diploma to Fix 'em
01-20-2007 Over year old.
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Tommy Z
Key Veteran
Location: Midland, Texas

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Man fromme2u

Looks like you got some awesome help...I wish I had something to contribute.

Tommy
01-20-2007 Over year old.
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nogodznomasterz
Senior Heliman
Location: Minnetonka MN

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Thats awesome he wanted an evo paint job!!!!!
You already won the best looking car award.
01-20-2007 Over year old.
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fromme2u
Veteran
Location: St. Louis, MO originally. Now in Jacksonville, FL

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Well... the races were held...

...and the results are in. The Sceadu EVO car did really well. So well, we took First place in the Bear Den and oh yeah, Pack Champion!!!

It was an awesome day at the track. We were undefeated in the Den level races out of 10 cars and 6 heats. Then during the Pack level races we got beat twice. one 2nd place finish and one 3rd place finish. We ended up having a 3 way tie for first in the first set of heats out 5 cars. During the runoff we dominated. Undefeated again. The other 2 cars had to have a runoff for 2nd and 3rd place. All in all it was awesome. I got video of all of our races and will be posting it up as soon as I get a chance to edit it and cut out wasted video. I appreciate all the help and will be keeping you all posted on the District level race. Wish us luck.



Chad



Naval Aviation...College Degree to Break 'em...
High School Diploma to Fix 'em
01-20-2007 Over year old.
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Kokamo
Senior Heliman
Location: Liberty Hill Tx

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FAR FREAKIN' OUT! Good job man! Did they do any research on it to see if there were any"illegal" things done to it?

Again, good job, I bet your boy feels like a million!

Joe
01-20-2007 Over year old.
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fromme2u
Veteran
Location: St. Louis, MO originally. Now in Jacksonville, FL

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They could of if they wanted too, It is 100% legal. I don't need to cheat to win. Plus I didn't want to put my son through that type of dissapointment. He is exstatic(sp) over the win. I got a little bit of work to do to it before the District races to make it faster. So if you still have tips, send them our way. Thanks again.

Chad

Naval Aviation...College Degree to Break 'em...
High School Diploma to Fix 'em
01-20-2007 Over year old.
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