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Autography FlightPower . Advantage Hobby . Revolution Models

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > A123 Racing 3S 2300 Turbo Pack - 3200 RPM @ 14.4V Setting
 
 
ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

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Follow Up - Final words about my tests and goal

In case folks are having a hard time following what I mean by voltage sag, I decided it best I provide an illustration of what happens to your LiPos today when you draw up your amps.

A good example of when an AMP spike occurs is when you attempt a fast climbout, or any other maneuver that makes your motor work harder.



The image on the left is a FlightPower EVO20 1800 3S battery pack. Most would call this a GEN2 pack. Surfaced in the market about 10-12 months ago.

The image on the right is a ThunerPower 2000 Prolite 3S battery pack. Most would call this a GEN1 pack. Surfaced in the market 24-30 months ago.

The whole premise of my test was to determine whether or not the A123 packs when used with their Hypersonic "Turbo" module would experience the same type of voltage sag.

If you review the results provided in this thread you'll find that my hypothesis was correct. Unfortunately, your typical speed conroller is unable to handle this type of load.

I basically moved the problem area from the battery to the speed controller.

There are ways around this, those "in the know" do it all the time using more expensive speed controllers and separate battery elimination circuits.

FWIW, this exercise has been A TON OF FUN.

Shell
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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clive45
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Location: NSW Australia

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??

What are they under on Ebay, i could not find any.

Cheers
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
dewalt 38V power tool packs.

I went ahead and did the deed over at rcuniverse. The review cleaned up nicely over there for those interested.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4730405/tm.htm

One last tidbit...

Voltage Sag for A123 2300 3S Turbo @ 12V



Voltage Sag for A123 2300 3S Turbo @ 10.8V

09-10-2006 Over year old.
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sailor1000
Heliman
Location: Belgium

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Hello schell you've done a great job, the hype around the A123 cells has been going on for at least a year now. finaly someone gets the data ready and like you warned us it is what it promised to be so far.
cheap batteries that are overweight, but fast charging whitout the wurries off fire, all in all a great thing for beginner heli pilots like lots off us. Just get a good BEC and the A123 fast charging cells will be great fun to starting pilots that have no need for overexited insekts hopping up and down, just safe cells that can give us the power the rex can ask and beginners need to get out of harms way. Been looking out for those cells long time, they sure will end up in bigger helies but dispite the overweight they will provide a safe platform for beginners like lots (me) off us

You where interested and you kept an open mind, taking all backdraws in mind, I would say you are ready for fatherhood.

LET THE FORUM KNOW IF ITS IS A BOY ORE A GIRL
IT IS NOT WORDS THAT ARE READ BUT PEOPLE THAT CHARE IDEAS

WELCOMING THE NEW WORLD MEMBER.
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

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Thanks a bunch there Sailor1000. Technically, this is #5 for us

2 came with the package that I love as if they were my own.

1 + the one in momma's belly were actually planned

1 we picked up along the way due to a family tragedy.

The wife carries the majority of the load (she's a full time mom) and I don't envy her one bit. As a matter of fact, I think I'm quite lucky that I get to leave the house for 10-11 hours each day

Truthfully though, I love my family and my kids. wouldn't change a thing there
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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TomRex
Elite Veteran
Location: West Palm Beach Join Date: 12-28-2005

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Shell why not test them against the emoli cells?

Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

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I'm tested out atm. lol. Seriously, I think I'm going to take a short break. When the curve swings back around I'm sure I'll pick up with something new.

If I had a truly suitable platform for these sized cells I'd probably go that route, but since there are so many safety issues (not with the heli -- all my kids) I don't see a 600 in my immediate future.

Shell
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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caseyjholmes
Elite Veteran
Location: SoCal

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Hmm,
So in the review, you are saying the batteries did well I take it, up untill the point when the esc thermal protection kicked in.
What do you think? Power for 3D or not?
Weight isn't an issue with enough power to the blades. Tried kicking the voltage up yet? I know you had to feel the urge to bring it up more!
I gotta get me one of those eagle tree systems!
Would be neato to provide flight data with my videos.

Every detail counts!
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
For me to do ANY more testing with the setup I will at the very least need to go with a higher AMP (40-45) rated ESC, and that is just to cover the 10.8V setting.

The pack/turbo module puts our electronics to shame. They simply put out more than our speed controllers can handle. And I don't mean just AMPs. It is they're ability to maintain a constant voltage that makes this such a hot setup.

Thermal shutdown at the 12V setting was quite abrupt. no warning whatsoever.

If I had a 14.4V+ ESC and uBEC I could comfortably do more testing throughout the entire voltage range but I just can't bring myself to invest that kind of money to finish a proof of concept.

At this point I'm very satisified with the results and believe they are self standing.

I also think they're 3D capable... just keep in mind that you've basically got a 1kg lawn dart on your hands Something else I need to callout (which someone else mentioned) when you crank up the nominal voltage on the turbo module you're sacrificing mAh.

Someone needs to pick this up on the 600 side. I think two of these 3S packs with two turbo modules (assuming you'd smoke one if you tried to run 6S through it) would be quite dreamy on a 600. My only callout is make sure that your ESC can truly handle the nominal voltage.

If someone were to do an eagletree test run with a 600 I believe they'd find that the typical LiPo 6S1P config sags just like our 3S LiPos sag.

Shell
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

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Oh I should add something regarding EagleTree. Pete Campbell (who lurks at RR regularly and is a Miniature RC sponsored 90 Pilot) is in the process of putting something flash related just along the lines you're proposing.

I'm pretty sure he's fairly close to having a dashboard overlay ready. The Eagletree stuff should be a topic in and of itself, probably best suited in the Electronics forum.

I've been having a ton of fun of mine. Has made it A LOT easier for me to communicate with folks about what's happening under the hood.
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDudeElite Veteran - Location: East Coventry, PA - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
PERPLEXED - Back to my EVO20 1800 3S Packs

Ok, now I'm really annoyed.

I got my EVO20 1800s back in. No problems to report with the ESC.

First just the standard volts and amps chart. If people have not yet grasped the whole voltage sag drum that I've been beating, this should make it jump out at you.



Now, here's the real rub. Check out the ESC temperature. I made sure that I attached the thermal probe to my ESC in the EXACT same manner in which I had it attached for the A123 test.



I wish I could just let this go but it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to. Now where did I leave that Eflight 40A ESC?

Shell
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDudeElite Veteran - Location: East Coventry, PA - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
The Tests Continue

This afternoon I had the opportunity to test just the 2300 3S pack in my T-Rex minus the Turbo module. A handful of folks throughout this process asked me to perform such a test, but because I was mainly focused on the quick and easy path to more watts I sidelined those requests and lumbered on, fighting my ESC all along the way.

I'm going to start this time with just the basic numbers. I assume most following the thread know what my goal is at this point: MORE WATTS. Granted, this is actually quite a large step backwards towards reaching that goal, but a necessary one given some feedback by a couple key individuals.



Observations

I'll cut to the chase. This setup is perfect for a T-Rex newbie. The extra weight of the A123 M1 3S pack actually makes the T-Rex cyclic more forgiving. Control inputs are much less abrupt. The reason why so many "pros" love the T-Rex is because it can bounce up/down left/right on the drop of a dime. Unfortunately for folks just entering the hobby, who tend to over-control their models, this has some serious consequences. It's bad enough that they struggle with the build and mechanics. My callout to A123Racing here is to offer an alternate config for your 3S pack. Line up two cells side by side and place the third one laterally in front of them.

Given the drop in nominal voltage my headspeed compared to a traditional LiPo 3S battery dropped around 6,000 RPM. Basically, I went from approximately 2,400 RPM down to about 1,800. Again, another big plus for the newbie out there. A lower headspeed so long as you don't have a helicopter's head under dampened also provides for a more forgiving cyclic.

If someone, lets say a newbie, were wanting to just putter around and hover, I'm going to guess they'd get around 15-20 minutes flight time out of this pack. That is just a guess. I tried the hover thing towards the end of the flight not knowing what the cutout was going to be like and I got bored with it rather quickly

Speed Controller temperature was a non issue. My ESC leveled out at 100F about mid flight (this was a 10 minute flight) and didn't go above it once. Amps with the lower voltage were also back in a much more favorable range not once going over 25.

So how about this Smaller Voltage Sag drum you've been beating Shell, you ask? It still holds true. The M1 3S pack minus the turbo module did a very good job maintaining nV. The biggest sag I was able to capture was approximately .5V, which is easily a third of what you'd see in a traditional Li* pack.

Next Steps

Someone suggested that I up the ante in another thread on another forum. I'm going to call their bet and raise them one. My next test will illustrate the results of changing out my pinion from 13T to 15T...

I'm not so much concerned about my ESC at this point. I'm farily confident the source of my issues are from a pure voltage perspective. I think so long as I keep my voltage down it should be able to handle whatever I can throw at it.

At some point down the road I'd like to revisit the Turbo module. I'm sure I'll only be able to put this off for so long before breaking down and buying a 14.4V+ ESC and uBEC. A123 -- I'm always open to donations

Shell
09-12-2006 Over year old.
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heliboy1023
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Location: Tinton Falls, NJ

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See if you can get your hands on a jazz. The fact it can handle a 6s pack, means it should be more than enough for the test with turbo modual.

You know you have to many heli's only when your wallet is empty.
09-12-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

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I'd been waiting for someone to suggest an ESC... thanks man.

In the meantime, I'm going to focus on getting my headspeed back up by going to the 15T pinion. If I can get back to the mid 2000 range then I can save myself a little weight, increase effciency, and decrease resistance.

Sid Kauffman had this to say about my Turbo Module tests:

Quote 

Looking at the first curve, I estimated an equivalent internal resistance of roughly 120 milliohms (delta V / delta I). If this were a 4-cell M1 pack, the internal resistance would be about 40 milliohms. That's a lot of lost power. One of the beauties of the M1 cell is its flat discharge curve relative to NiMH and LiPo.

http://www.slkelectronics.com/DeWalt/index.htm.

To me this switcher is trying to gild the lily.

When you crank up the volts you also crank down the mah of the "pack" plus lose the inefficiency of the switcher. It's not clear to me that this is really a good thing. Of course I'd tear apart a DeWalt pack any day rather than paying those A123 prices. Different strokes.

Sid



When Sid says jump, I respond with, "How high?"
09-12-2006 Over year old.
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rerazor
Elite Veteran
Location: Mich.

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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=566256

For larger helis.
09-14-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDudeElite Veteran - Location: East Coventry, PA - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Hi All,

I ran an additional test regarding A123 Turbo module that provided me some interesting (yet very logical) results. I put my Eagletree in between the 3S pack and the turbo module:



I was also able to get some actual specifications for the Turbo module from a fellow ezoner:

Quote 
Operating Guidelines
Capable of dissipating 20 watts of heat
Watts = Working AMPERAGE x DESIRED VOLTAGE / 10
example: 20amps at 7.2V : 20 x 7.2 / 10 =14.4watts
Max temperature is 60'C (140'F)
Recommended for use in brushed cars and trucks. Please be especially careful
when using the Hypersonic TurboTM in other vehicles.

They imply it is 90% efficient so it is only good for 200W total. You were
right at that level. Notice the last line, though.


A bit more details given my average AMP draw in the previous tests:

@ 10.8V
8.4A X 10.8V / 10 = 9.072W

Well within the range until you look at my peaks:
30A X 10.8V / 10 = 32.4W

@ 12V
10.5A X 12V / 10 = 12.6W

Well within the range again until you look at my one peak:
24.9A X 12V / 10 = 29.88W

I suspect A123 intentionally used the term Working AMPERAGE to cover the entire range of AMPs your setup would ever draw.

Digging a little deeper I can now assume that I had two problems when working with the turbo module:

  • @12V my ESC was unable to handle the voltage and shutdown. Had it been able to the Turbo module would've eventually shutdown.
  • @10.8V my ESC was probably able to sustain the nV but the turbo module shutdown. It may also be a combination of the two.


I will be unable to confirm both scenarios until I have my Jazz, which I'm going to buy regardless. The real question here is whether or not I want to go back down this path given the possiblity of a shutdown or worse during a high amp operation.

Shell
09-17-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

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I should add that use of the turbo module itself is the only component where use is currently being discouraged in our setup. The M1 cells themselves still hold some remarkable benefits with our stock setups.

Specifically, I believe a 3S pack when used with your typical pinion setup for a traditional LiPo will work well for a newbie, or someone wishing to just hover/putter around.

I also still have high hopes for the setup once I get around to swapping out my 13T pinion for a 15T one.

Shell
09-17-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

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Just wanted to post a teaser. I got my Jazz going (well worth the price tag!) and I'll be firing up the Turbo Module in it's 12V mode this weekend.

I've been working with A123 and they believe given my data that I'm within the tolerances of their module so I'm a bit psyched.

I will be foregoing the pinion change for the time being. As soon as I have updates I'll be sure to post them. Hopefully some time tomorrow, weather permitting.

Incidentally, my wife did give birth to our latest addition the Tuesday before last. My apologies for not making the announcement sooner but I'm proud to announce that Isabel Marguerite Shrader was born September 19, 2006 at 4:43AM EST.

Baby pictures can be found here:
http://pictures.shellware.com/albums/1.aspx

Shell

~~OCHC~~
http://www.glumbert.com/media/spiders
09-30-2006 Over year old.
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MrMel
rrProfessor
Location: Lidingo, Sweden (GMT+1)

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Congrats!!
09-30-2006 Over year old.
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bawufa
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Location: Italy / Venice

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Lovely baby !

Now you have a better toy than rex !


------------------------------------------------------------

"Real men skip the pussy gear"
09-30-2006 Over year old.
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CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters . HeliProz

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > A123 Racing 3S 2300 Turbo Pack - 3200 RPM @ 14.4V Setting
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