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Revolution Models . CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > A123 Racing 3S 2300 Turbo Pack - 3200 RPM @ 14.4V Setting
 
 
clive45
Veteran
Location: NSW Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		A123

Sailor100, from what you say there are 10 cells in the pack, which makes them 3.6v each. Does this mean they cannot be charged on the normal LIPO charger which expects 3,7v cells. They warn you on my charger not to charge the older 3.6v cells with it.
09-02-2006 Over year old.
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FrittsLogic
Senior Heliman
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		So I just got some of these packs and their charger. I hooked the charger up to my p/s, plugged in a battery per the instructions (mindlessly simple), it started charging and then blew its 15 amp fuse within a minute(it's supposed to be used on a 10A p/s, so what would it have done to my p/s if it was a 10A not the 25A that I have?). All three packs that came looked to be built very shoddily. No heat shrink on the exposed leads of the battery Dean's connectors. Poorly applied stickers. Partial heat shrink application to the cells themselves. It's very hard to recover from a bad first impression. I really don't have much confidence in their gear at all now.

We don't need no stinking flybars!
09-02-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		FWIW, I provided Brian (the A123Racing guy) a link to this thread. Hopefully he's following things in the background. The ebay dewalt stuff is totally out of his hands, but when it comes to stuff coming directly from A123 they really need to hear/read our impressions.

You should have gotten a Feedback card as I did. I fully intend on filling mine out. I suspect (hope) it gets sent a level above the department responsible for the assembly and distribution of these packs.

I also noticed that RCUniverse is hosting an A123 forum, that is linked from the A123Racing site. Once I'm done with everything here (as I consider RR to be my online RC home) I'll probably cruise over there and let loose.

I had zero luck with my charger until I took it outside, popped the hood on my truck and charged, errantly of course, my 2S pack. It took all of maybe 10 minutes. My wife came out, saw the hood open, and got all worried that something was wrong with the truck. I've always told her about the potential hazards of the LiPo batteries I use and she immediately found the irony of me having to go outside to charge the one pack I own that doesn't have the potential of setting the house on fire. If your fuse is popping, my guess is you have a bad charger.

Man what a shame. Hopefully these problems are just startup related. I had very high hopes for A123 and have been in discussions with them on and off for a bit over a year now. With that said, nothing has been given to me. All of this has come right out of my checking account.

Shell
09-02-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Another thought regarding your charger. It might be just fine.

If you've got some spare fuses, and other A123 packs, I'd try it on one of those.

If it still pops, then my bet is dead charger.
09-02-2006 Over year old.
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hotgluedheli
Senior Heliman
Location: USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		A123 battery

Just ordered the same.. will post my experiences once i get it in. Hopefully won't be wrong one like shelldude.

I crash therefore I am
09-03-2006 Over year old.
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clive45
Veteran
Location: NSW Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		??

I have been reading a thread by the car racing people and they have been joined by one of the A123 people who answers all thier questions.
Life says that you dont get anything for nothing and so does science. My reading tells me that the benefiets are safty,no cutoff worry,fast charge. Down side, heavier,lower voltage, needs special charger,price. The booster gives you the extra voltage but takes away the Ma's.
It does worry me that they seem to be shoddily built, not a good look for a new product that you are trying to promote.
The idea of being to be able to vary your voltage to suit what you want to run the battery in. Sport flying then boost the voltage for 3D.
09-03-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I believe (could be mistaken) vendors are not typically allowed to respond here unless they pay for advertising. I'd hate for this thread to get closed over something like that so I'm kinda happy they haven't responded directly.

Once I'm done with my own analysis, I will visit their forum @ rcuniverse and post results. But RR gets it first.

With that said, I was unable to get the 2S pack off to A123 until Wednesday, provided them the 2nd day tracking # (all of this on their account #), and asked if there was any way to get me my replacement before the weekend.

Once again, the response was very professional and courteous. My 3S pack is on its way to me overnight.

They were also very receptive to my feedback regarding overall pack assembly... the rub being the label. They assured me that they're exploring every avenue possible to improve the application method of the label.

So at this point, I'd say they've stepped up to the plate, and even gone the extra mile, for a typical, non affiliated, paying customer.

So long as the wife doesn't go into labor this weekend (she was due yesterday) I should have some cool graphs to post by Sunday.

Shell
09-08-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		The Real Test Begins

Got my 3S pack today... It "was" built like a triangular brick and there was no way it was gonna fit inside or under my canopy.

I didn't bother taking pictures of the pack disassembly process. I did pay close attention to the original pack assembly though, and aside from a few crinks on the label, it was put together quite well.

The M1 cells are wrapped in paper and they (A123) used some fairly heavy duty contacts tacked onto the cells.

I untacked one of the contacts that freed one of the cells from the pack, then put it length wise in front of the remaining two cells. I then got some decent gauged noodle and quickly soldered it to the remaining tacked end on one cell, built up some solder on the other, and did the deed there too.

So basically it looks like so now:

==||

It just barely fits inside the CF HDE frame and canopy. The canopy will require two new holes because it is a bit wide. Initially I'm going to just slap it under the canopy with some velcro tie wrap because my bird is a bit nose heavy and I really don't feel like having to fine tune the balance to get it all lined up when all I'm after are some initial test results.

The pack and turbo module come out to a whopping 336 grams. My AUW is going to be 914 grams, cough.

More to follow. I plan to have some data (and photos) ready tomorrow.

Shell
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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sailor1000
Heliman
Location: Belgium

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		is it not so that A123racing, on their site clames your pack weigs 265 gr. I did see that their 2 cel pack also was havier than wat is mentioned on their site.(thanks to your scale scheldude)

Best off luck in delivering the results off your hard work ;-) (including your wife ofcourse)
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDudeElite Veteran - Location: East Coventry, PA - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
HAHAHA! I'll be sure to pass that on to her. I've been in serious negotiations with the "nameless one" and she assures me that she'll wait until after the weekend.

Now with that said, and the bred in stubborness, the wife is now guarranteed to go into labor about the time I get my rexxy spooled up ready to do some serious recording tomorrow

So as a preemptive strike, I did a bit more than I sat out to do tonight.

First, to answer your question, the weight I quoted was for the 2200 3S pack and the turbo module. I'm treating them as one since the turbo module is an intregal component in this test. The AUW # was a swag given my last captured UAW, subtracting out the pack weight, then adding in the weight of the A123 pack/turbo module. I took the A123 pack/turbo weight and the weight of the EVO 20 in the my last AUW measurement from memory. I think I was off a few grams on one of those numbers as what I'm posting now are ACTUAL meausrements.

On to the goods. I have some photos.







I also did the unthinkable and spooled my Rexxy up above head, securely in hand with my flight recorder attached and recording. I'm in the process of downloading the session now and will be following up in a few minutes with the results and a brief explanation of the test scenario.
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDudeElite Veteran - Location: East Coventry, PA - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Unfortunately all my recorder captured was voltage in the "don't try this at home" bench test.

I'm sure I had something screwed up... At least I hope I did. It's pretty late here, and I'm a bit beat at this point so please bear with me as I am able to spend more time tomorrow capture some real world numbers, as in numbers without me holding the heli in my hand above my head pumping the collective...

yes I know, BAD SHELL!

Chart removed due to bad data / irrelevence

Some things to note... this data is practicually useless and I probably shouldn't even be posting it but I want to get something out there.

I first spooled up with the turbo module set at 12v (2 lights) and pumped the collective. I then switched it to 13v (3 lights) and pumped the collective again.

When I conduct my real tests tomorrow I will capture these operations as unique sessions, powering down the EagleTree recorder between each and hopefully I'll get the amperage data that is key to concluding this test.

Assuming this is actual data taken from the collective pumps, I'm a bit excited... Granted my Rexxy is a pig, but the voltage range collected here is VERY small.

Needless to say I'm very excited to see what tomorrow brings

Shell
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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Boidman
Key Veteran
Location: home

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		That's it, my suspicions are confirmed, you are a devout tink(l)e(r)ing fool, good on ya. Regardless the diatribes that have been released in the past regarding 'handheld' testing, on this size heli the standard stated risks are minimal at worst. The only real issue might be proximity to an unexpectedly released tail blade. You know you're going to build a hold-down, and at least lean up a piece of plywood to stand behind during spool-ups, sooner or later. Keep the data flow, well, fluid.
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Are you suggesting a foo shield? how's the development coming along?
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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Boidman
Key Veteran
Location: home

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		. . .
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		OH NELLY!

I believe I just experienced my first full on thermal shutdown of an Align ESC. I got all of maybe 1 minute worth of flight and she just shut down. I waited a couple minutes, plugged everything back in and she came right back up, so (very preliminary) I think I've got more umpf (sustained Voltage) than my Align 35A ESC can handle.

No damage... she cut out at about 10' off the ground and settled down nicely. I switched to throttle hold about halfway into the fall and cranked up collective.

This is all visual / adreneline talking at this point so bear with me.

950+ grams is nutin. My rexxy was just as solid and responsive with all the pig iron weight as it is at 733g.

The power with the turbo module with two lights on (12V) was um, how do I say this. UNREAL!

I'm downloading flight data now. I do believe I'll be needing a better ESC before going back to 12V. The family has some things for me to do today so I might not be able to get back to more tests until tomorrow.

If my recorder data shows anything of value, I'll be sure to post it before disappearing for the afternoon.

All I can say right now is that the headspeed bump alone was enough to get the adreneline going like my very first figure 8.
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDudeElite Veteran - Location: East Coventry, PA - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
12V Test

Ok, here's the data, as brief it was, I'm blown away by the performance... which you'd think should be the case considering these are 3 5/4C cells.



Some observations.

When you tell the turbo module that you want 12V, guess what? It gives you 12V. None of this I charged my pack to 12.46V, to plug it in and watch the voltage drop to 10.5 the second you go into a hover.

The BIG amp spike was when I cutover to Throttle Up. The surge wasn't just noticable in this graph. I had a HUGE increase in Headspeed... much more so than I've ever experienced before.

The majority of the flight was me doing basic hover. The slight dip you see in amps (at around 55 seconds) is when I started some slow FF.

The big drop in amps at the end was when the ESC cutoff. I'm convinced I had a thermal shutdown because everything else stayed lit up.

If I'm lucky I'll have some time later this afternoon to try the 10.8V setting. I'm hoping not to have another thermal shutdown at that setting. So long as my ESC holds out I should be able to generate some decent load with piros and collective abuse.
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDudeElite Veteran - Location: East Coventry, PA - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
10.8V Test

Man I love it when "extended" family outings fall apart. It gave me an opportunity to do my 10.8V test.

Headspeed settled down quite a bit. Heli was able to do FF without any issue, but after a couple good piros and collective pumps the ESC once again started to cutout. It wasn't as abrupt this time, and I had the foresight to stop measuring pack temperature and instead measure ESC temperature.

First, just an amps/volts comparison:



When you put ESC temperature into the mix, it becomes quite a telling story:



Observations:

I'm guessing due to the extra weight.. actually, pretty certain because of the extra weight, I'm drawing quite a bit more amps in the peaks.

I believe because of the increased AMP draw and the ability of the pack/turbo module to sustain constant voltage that my Align ESC is starting to show it's true colors.

My guess at this point that the Align ESC begins its thermal shutdown at around 110F. This is somewhat relative because the temperature probe was sitting on the heatsink and I really have no way of knowing what the actual temperature is.

I'll be putting one of my EVO packs back into it some time in the not so distant future... possibly tonight, probably tomorrow, and put her thru all the paces to see if I've caused any permanent damage to the ESC. I'll be sure to setup the temperature probe in the exact same manner I had it setup for this test and I should be able to generate some kind of baseline at that point, assuming my ESC hasn't been permanently damaged.

In the meantime, I think I need a better speed controller

Shell
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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Boidman
Key Veteran
Location: home

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Good stuff.
09-09-2006 Over year old.
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clive45
Veteran
Location: NSW Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		??

I modified my Align 25amp ESC by using a heatsink off an old videoboard which I cut to fit over all the FET's the temperature dropped quite dramatically. Also I cannot see where your ESC is mounted, but it needs to get air circulating around it. I do not know if the 35Amp ESC can be set for soft cut off or not, but this may be a good heli saver.
I applaud your work and look forward to your future information, I am interested in these cells for my QJ EP8 which is quite a bit bigger and easier to fit the pack and booster.
Well done.
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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ShellDude
Elite Veteran
Location: East Coventry, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Conclusion

My Align 35A is mounted underneath the frame with the heatsink facing down. It is an older 35A with no GOV mode and the heatsink is mounted under the heatshrink, unlike the newer ones where they slap it over it. With my normal setup I have never had any kind of thermal cutout problems. Please bear in mind that my normal setup has never drawn more than 28A and my normal LiPo packs all experience a measurable voltage sag under peak amps.

There is no way possible that this ESC could handle 35A with any type of reliability given a battery pack that could deliver on its own published ratings. In other words, so much for my 11.1V 35A Speed Controller being able to sustain 30A peaks at even 10.8V.

I could just as easily recreate this scenario by running two 3S packs in parallel. I have no doubt that so long as a pack can supply what our motors draw that this problem can be consistently recreated.

To be fair to Align, I bet the problem exists across the majority of 11.1V speed controllers out there with integrated BECs.

So now I'm armed with the knowledge that just because an ESC says it's rated for 11.1V it doesn't necessarily mean it can actually handle 11.1v. For some folks, I understand that this is not breaking news. I also recognize that the BEC plays a big role in this limitation.

I have an Eflight 40A ESC that I'm considering swapping in. I suspect it'll be able to handle the 10.8V setting okay but I'll be right back to square one just as soon as I try to crank up the voltage to 12V.

I really want to make this setup work. Heck, I want to make it work with the 12.0v setting, but it looks like the only way I'm going to be able to do that is with a 14.4V rated ESC and a separate uBEC. I just wonder what will happen when I dial it up to 14.4V

It's refreshing to have a battery pack that can take all that's thrown at it. I know there's some magic happening inside the "turbo" module, but at least they deliver on their rating. I'm sure someone will have 6 of these setup in series with a turbo module (or two) at some point in the near future. I wonder what'll happen to those 75A ESCs when that happens. Perhaps they'll be bit more forgiving given the absence of a BEC.

I strongly encourage the 600 guys out there to check out these cells. Go cheap... as in grab a bunch off ebay and just buy the A123 turbo module (or two) and possibly the charger. Sid Kauffman has a nice little adapter for the typical LiPo charger so don't feel like you have to lock yourself into A123 either.

With that said, my hat's off to A123. You MIT guys now need to rehuddle for a bit and figure out a way to introduce a bit of miniturization into your formula to get your weight down and you'll take the Mini-Helicopter community by storm and quite possibly rewrite the way we rank packs and speed controllers!

Shell
09-10-2006 Over year old.
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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > A123 Racing 3S 2300 Turbo Pack - 3200 RPM @ 14.4V Setting
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