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Got Jet Fuel? Turbine Helicopters > Help with vario 4 head configuration
 
 
Ecabanas
Senior Heliman
Location: Barcelona/Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		hi guys,

I'm triming my ec135 and I want to see fly NOW!!! the heli, engine and I think fenestron are ready. Yesterday I was in the field and I installed a base in the skid to prevent any failure.

The turbine reached 100% and the heli started to "want" to fly!!!...but NO!!! the stick response is not right.

When I move the stick right, the heli wants move diagonal front right!!! I tried to fix moving the swash, but i did not reach the configuration.

Anybody has a video or picture showing the right way to configure this?

thank's for your help...I'm desperado!!!
08-25-2006 Over year old.
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Jack Martin
Senior Heliman
Location: AKA HeliJack, Washougal, WA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Sounds to me like your phasing is off, maybe 45 degrees from the sound of things. Are you using a radio, mixer or straight up mechanical for phasing?
Jack

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08-25-2006 Over year old.
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Ecabanas
Senior Heliman
Location: Barcelona/Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Jack,

I did not use any phasing...what is phasing? My configuration is direct from the radio, but no mixings at all!!!

Do you know how could I fix the problem?

Thank's in advance

I have the spartan in my desk, do you think it could help?

Eduard
08-27-2006 Over year old.
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ron6460
Senior Heliman
Location: mass get fu----ked pay pay state

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		BLADE PHASING

YOU NEED A HELITRONIC MIXER!!! I HAVE ON ON MY NH 90 4 BLADED HEAD!!! IT IS VERY EASY TO INSTALL AND USE, GOOD LUCK RON!!!
08-27-2006 Over year old.
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Jack Martin
Senior Heliman
Location: AKA HeliJack, Washougal, WA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yes, I think you need a mixer simply because of language barrier and the difficulty in getting it all correct. This is a critical need. You can just install one of the mixers and a gyro on the elevator function at the same time and have a much more stable machine.

You can also do it mechanically, and with mixing in some radios. There are multiple methods of doing each. Vario Canada had some good stuff in the past, Peter Wales site is good too:
http://home.cfl.rr.com/pwales/
East Coast Vario has a page on it here:
http://www.eastcoastvario.com/heads.htm
The mixer can be purchased from East Coast, but a web page on it is here:
http://www.helitronix.com/page2.html

I hope these survive censureship, these are all important links to places that can assist you in much more detail with this issue. It is well explained above, better than I can.

Jack

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08-28-2006 Over year old.
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MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		the helitronix mixer is great,

from what i recalled it allows you to move the swash so the pushrods are more vertical rather having them at steep angles and almost coming back on themsleves,

if i am incorect then please correct it,

i bought my machine second hand so it was already programmed in,

and i havent programmed one since.

matt
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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Ecabanas
Senior Heliman
Location: Barcelona/Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hui Matt,

I have Spartan mixer in antoher machine working as a stabilizer...I'll try to install in ec135 and see whats happen.

any trick installing a mixer? the radio has to be programmed a program? or as I install a mixer the radio did no have to do nothing?

thank's

Eduard
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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MattJen
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Ecabanas,

i am afraid i dont know, your best to email hellitronix, or peter Wales, or DennisS, or Modtron,
i know there others but these people hlped me alot and were good at explaining it so i as a newby could understand.

Mine was already done, when i bought the machine so i cannot help you.

Ecabanas, estoy asustado que no sé, su mejor al hellitronix del email, o País de Gales del peter, o DennisS, o Modtron, sé allí otros pero esta gente hlped me alot y era buena en explicar lo así que i pues un newby podría entender. El mío fue hecho ya, cuando compré la máquina así que no puedo ayudarle.

Matt
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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modtron
Veteran
Location: Oxford. UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Ecabanas

The normal transmitter CCPM mixer will work just fine.
The use of the Helitronix or other mixers allows the use of gyro's to be used on the cyclic controls of the rotor head if required.

As for the phasing, try this......

1, Fit only one blade onto the rotor head.

2, Rotate the head until this blade is directly over the tail boom.

3, Loosen the swash driver and rotate the inner ring of the swashplate until the pushrod from this blade is at 90 degrees in front of this blade. The ball joint in question, should now be at 90 degrees to the centre line of the helicopter. Re-tighten the driver

4, Now use the radio in the Roll/Aileron axis only and the blade should move in the roll response. If you move the Elevator/Pitch axis, there should be no movement on this blade. If it requires fine tuning, rotate the swashplate driver until all un-wanted movement is removed.

5, You will now have the head set up for the correct control response, but the linkages will be at quite an angle from the swqshplate to the blade arm.

6,By using someting like the Helitronix mixer, you can rotate the swashplate ellectronically and let the pushrods travel vertically. At the same time, you will not need to use the CCPM mix in the transmitter, as it is done in the mixer.

Both systems work, it's your choice.

modtron
Oxford UK
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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Ecabanas
Senior Heliman
Location: Barcelona/Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Modtron,

Thank's for your advice. I did as you explained, but I have a little undesired movement in the boom opposite blades...I tryied to adjust, but always this little movement appears...

I had several conversations with guys with 4 blade head, and had many problems in the blade. Some one told to me put a mixer, and leave the mixer control the swash, and some one suggest to me add to the mixer a gyro...

The problem is why do these or the other, which is the Gyro effect? that's my problem..I hate do something without knowing the reaction!!!

Thank's

Eduard
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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modtron
Veteran
Location: Oxford. UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Eduard,

Once you have the basic set-up, it's then down to fine tuning, flying and trying.

The mixer option can help with the linkages with great effect, as it helps to keep them in a straight line rather than acute angles.

The main reason most people use the mixer, is for a small ammount of gyro input on the elevator channel. It is not normally found to be required on the roll axis. The gyro can sometimes help to make the head react like a flybar head at times, with a little more stability.

I am certain that others on this forum who have used the mixer and gyro option, can throw more light on this subject.

From my own personal experience, I do not use the mixer now, as I have found the use of gyro's not to be required, but that is just my own experience.

The Vario 2 bolt head is not difficult to fly, just different. It just takes a little time to get used to it.

It may be better for you, if you have access to another machine to get used to control of the head on a pod & boom model, rather than on your turbine 135.

My work schedule does not leave any time for oversea's visits, but if you ever get over to the UK, your more than welcome to fly my Vario 4 blade set-up on my pod & boom test model.
Mspot flew it some time ago and surprised that it was not any where near as difficult as others had made out.

modtron
Oxford UK
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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Ecabanas
Senior Heliman
Location: Barcelona/Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Modtron,

Thank's for your offer. Now I'm not comming to uk, last year I was every week, but fortunatelly I changed the work, thank's again from your offer.

If I do the set up as you told to me in several messages below, the pushrods are extremly diagonal way, I think if I try to fly the heli, the G force may be unplug the pushrods...do you have any picture detailled from your head? it's just to see if i set up right!

Thank's and sorry for the inconvenience!!

Eduard
Barcelona-Spain-
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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modtron
Veteran
Location: Oxford. UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Eduard,

I know the linkages look bad, but they do stay on.

I'll get some pictures of one of my set-ups and get it posted in the next few hours.

It's not an inconvenience. It's better to ask than try on your own.

modtron
Oxford UK
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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modtron
Veteran
Location: Oxford. UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Eduard,

I hope this helps with what you are looking for...........



modtron
Oxford UK
08-28-2006 Over year old.
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Ecabanas
Senior Heliman
Location: Barcelona/Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Modtron,

I'm going to printing and check with mine...thank's for all

Eduard
08-29-2006 Over year old.
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PETER ROB
Key Veteran
Location: Devon UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Eduard
Modtron has posted a photo of 3 servo ccpm I think yours is 4 servo ccpm would you like a photo of the 4 servo ccpm setup
Peter R
08-29-2006 Over year old.
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Ecabanas
Senior Heliman
Location: Barcelona/Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi peter,

Now I installed 3 servo, but I'm considering to install 4.

Please send me all info as you can/want, because here in Spain there is no people who controls this machine

My private email is ecabanas@terra.es

Thank's for all

Eduard
08-29-2006 Over year old.
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PETER ROB
Key Veteran
Location: Devon UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Eduard
I have just set this up to show you the 4 servo CCPM
The important point is that the bolt in the center of the blade holder and the 2 balls on the swashplate all line up, correct phasing, no need for electronic mixing to get phasing correct
The problem I have found with multi blade set up is the swashplate driver is very close to the push rods, so on models I have built in the past I have changed the straight piece of nylon on the driver to a cranked one (Vario)this gives plenty of clearance for the rods
This is the head that will go on to Matts old EC135 when I get time to have a look at it
How is the weather in Barcelona I could do with a holiday
Peter R

08-29-2006 Over year old.
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Ecabanas
Senior Heliman
Location: Barcelona/Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Peter

Thank's again. Yes I had the same problem with the driver nut and the pushrods, I don't know if smooth over the piece to live the pushrod free...this afternoon I'll make a pic and I'll post to take a look and show you the problem.

The weather here is fantastic, 26 degrees in the morning, 28 noon and 21 at night...now is the best season to come.

Let me know if u come!!

Eduard
08-29-2006 Over year old.
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Jack Martin
Senior Heliman
Location: AKA HeliJack, Washougal, WA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Eduard,
Ok multiblades function without the flybar. The flybar starts the input for the desired change in direction for you so you don't have to worry about precession and the gyroscopic effect.

You said you wanted to know. Peruse this, it is complicated and confusing.


You notice on a flybarred head the flybar is 90 degrees to the blades.

1. To ease the confusion of this issue, let us assume we have a counter clockwise (CCW) rotating head.
2. We will also assume the links attatch at the front of the blade grip.
3. Number of servos on the swash is not important.
4. Let us also assume that the head is set with the pitch/grip links at 90 degrees to the swashplate.
5. Let us assume we want to go forward from a hover.

We input forward stick expecting to go forward. With a flybar we do a s the flybar will compensate and do for us what the multi/flybarless wont. So, without a flybar and not phased we go at a 45 degree angle to the desired direction, and since it is CCW we will slide to the 1:30 o'clock direction...more or less.

What needs to happen, regardless of the number of blades or flybar, the input needs to begin at 90 degrees before the desired new direction, greatest swash deflection is at 45 degrees before the desired direction, and input is finished at the desired direction.

So what we do is called phasing, simply put, maximum swashplate deflection for any given direction needs to be 45 degrees before the blade reaches the desired direction. Input begins at 90 degrees before and completes at desired direction.

Well how do we acheive this? Essentially we want to swash plate to deflect at 1:30 to go a 12:00 direction in a CCW head. In a clockwise rotation, we want the maximum deflection to be at 10:30 o'clock to go in the 12:00 direction. That is phasing.

This can be done (to the best of my knowledge) in 3 ways.
1. Mechanically - pushrods will have very steep angles, set with swashlock.
2. Radio mixing. Some radios you can put in a full 45 degrees of mix to acheive this, some will only put in 40 degrees and that is not enough.
3. Electronically with hardware you can purchase which not only will do the CCPM (3 or 4 servo), but phase for either diretion of rotation.

If that didn't confuse you we made a big step forward. Keep working with Peter.
Jack

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08-29-2006 Over year old.
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