Topic Subscribe
WATCH  3 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ]29911 viewsPOST REPLY
Heli-Max . Scorpion Power System . Ron's RC Helicopters
. .

Blades and Night Flying

 >

Wet sand and polish clearcoat - what to use?

angelob

Key Veteran

Janesville WI

For those that have applied their own clearcoat - unless everthing is perfect you probably wind up with a sort of orange-peel look. I cleared my first canopy this weekend and wound up with this look. Its not drastic, in fact it looks like my car's clearcoat. But from what I understand, in order to get that mirror look you need to wet sand and polish.

What grit paper and what polish are people using out there?

Thanks,
Angelo

08-09-2006 Over year old.
ESWLFSE

Elite Veteran

Cedar Park, TX

The grit of paper that you use determines how agressive the cut and leveling effect will be, and also how difficult it will be to remove the scratches again. On a flat panel of a show car and with 6 coats of clear you might start with 500 and work up to 2000. On a small, rounded canopy you can probably get a nice result using only 2000.

To finish polish you can probably get away with using just a fine polishing product like DuPont Finesse-It and many others. I have even used Novus fine scratch remover for plexiglass. Normally you would start with a more aggressive rubbing compound.

Its a lot of work either way so be prepared. Also make absolutely sure that your water and surfaces are not contaminated with any particles that might be larger than 2000 grit. If one becomes trapped between your papaer and finish you can irreparably damage it with deep scratches. When I restored cars I used a squeeze bottle fitted with a model engine fuel filter and a section of fuel tubing to apply the water. I also only did this work in complete silence so that I could hear when a particle found its way between the paper and the finish.

You will need a very flexible rubber squeegee or a towel to dry and check your work as you go making sure you sand just until all the gloss is gone and no more to insure that you do not penetrate the clearcoat. Do not sand edges at all.

08-09-2006 Over year old.
Dave Yost

rrAdvertiser

San Diego Ca, USA

All good advice. I start with 2000 wet. Then Finesse-it, then Mcquires #27 swerl remover. Then Mcquires Show Car Glaze. Finle clean up with Mcquires Mist and Wipe. You must do it by hand, don't use a buffer or you will burn through it.

and yes, its a lot of work, you can count on 2 to 3 hours to get the shine back. Use a very soft cotton rag, I use old under shirts.

It took me two years to get good enough at shooting clear that I did not have to rub after. However, if your doing custom bikes, its expected.
the bigger the area, the more likly you will have surface defects, even in a booth.

Cheers Dave

MA Fury Extreme,Vibe 50, JR 9303,YS,Vblades, Don't blame me, I voted for Jimmy Buffet!

08-09-2006 Over year old.
angelob

Key Veteran

Janesville WI

Thanks for the reply guys - looks like I have an afternoon of work cut out for me...

Angelo

08-09-2006 Over year old.
angelob

Key Veteran

Janesville WI

Ok, first off thanks for the advice from both Altimat and DYD Dave - after some intense labor...the canopy looks great. That Finesse-it works awesome.

On a side note, if you don't mind answering - Dave, what specific gun are you using to apply clearcoat? Also, what nozzle size are you using? From researching, it appears my nozzle might be on the small side (stop right there...). I know I'm using the harbor freight detail gun special and won't get the same results, but if I know what pros use, I can make a list for Santa.

Angelo

08-09-2006 Over year old.
Dave Yost

rrAdvertiser

San Diego Ca, USA

SATA ! I have a SATA touch-up gun that is my "clear only" GUN. I am away from the shop at the momment and can't remember the Tip size. Let me look at it tonight and I will put it out.

Cheers Dave

MA Fury Extreme,Vibe 50, JR 9303,YS,Vblades, Don't blame me, I voted for Jimmy Buffet!

08-10-2006 Over year old.
Dave Yost

rrAdvertiser

San Diego Ca, USA

SATA Minijet (1.0 Nozzle) Let know if there is any thing else I can do for you.

Cheers Dave

MA Fury Extreme,Vibe 50, JR 9303,YS,Vblades, Don't blame me, I voted for Jimmy Buffet!

08-12-2006 Over year old.
angelob

Key Veteran

Janesville WI

Let know if there is any thing else I can do for you.
You can send me your gun - I'll pm you my address and I'll spring for shipping...

Seriously, if you dont mind answering some other questions, it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm gonna hijack my own thread...

What paints do you use? I'm using auto-air and I don't know if I'm crazy about them. It seems like some colors bond to the surface better than others. For instance, I did a canopy in electric green with a pearl purple windscreen and black outline. I had no issues. Today I did another canopy in their iridescent yellow with a pearl black windscreen outlined in black. When I pulled the tape off, along came the pearl black. It really didn't bond to the surface at all.

I'm spraying light coats and curing with a heat gun between coats. I don't think its my technique since I'm not having issues with other colors, but not sure...

Do you have any suggestions for primer? I've been using their 4001 base coat sealer but it seems so-so.

Thanks in advance,
Angelo

08-12-2006 Over year old.
Dave Yost

rrAdvertiser

San Diego Ca, USA

Well here's the deal. I have been messing with auto paint and clear for about 20 years now, whenever I get the paint question on RR, I tell people what I think and every Tom, Dick and Harry comes up with examples to prove me wrong. So, what the hell, here we go again!

1.Take all of the bottles of AutoAir in your shop and throw them in the garbage. In my opinion, the stuff is junk. I have tried it twice. It's ok for one color, but as soon as you try to mask off lines, it comes off. Bottom line is this, like chemicals stick to like chemicals. When you attempt to stick a water based product to a urethane or laquer based primer, you will have mechanical grip, but NOT CHEMICAL BOND. This is the part where everybody who has ever shot a canopy with auto air starts PM'ing to tell you I don't know what I am talking about. To further support this, find me a professional bike painter that uses AutoAir that is not being paid to endorse the product. If the stuff is so great, how come nobody that paints professionally uses it? Reason: If you have to take a heat gun to it to make it stick, you're wasting time and money. Let's say you have 10 hrs. into a job, and the last thing to do is add a stripe and when you pull the tape up, the paint lifts all the away down to the primer, you're done. It will take 5 to 7 Hrs. to fix it. I am not saying it won't work, I am saying it has its limitations, so why mess with it?

2. Use Urethane primer (Euro Primer 2K). Fills super-bitchin and the paint will chemically bond. Sealer is designed to seal multiple layers of other paint and primer down(restoring a hot rod that had to be sanded and striped as an example) so that when you paint over it, there is no bleed through. On a fiberglass canopy, this is not nessasary. In fact, you want Mechanical and Chemical grip so you can mask without it lifting. Use Urethane primer, sand with 400 wet and degrease. Your base coat will stick like glue.

3. Paint: House of Kolor universal base coat, PPG Vibrance or Dupont Cromabase. PERIOD! You just can't beat the results from any of these three products. I use House of Kolor almost exclusively. GO to TCPgloble.com or autobodydepot.com. You can purcahse House of Kolor in 4oz quantities that are pre-mixed and ready to pour in the gun and shoot. PPG and Dupont will cost an arm and a leg to shoot a canopy with, because most jobbers will only mix it in quart or maybe pint quanities. TCPgloble sells HOK in smaller, more affordable quanities. CHECK'EM OUT! You will never use Auto Air again after you paint with this stuff and it dries in one minute and you mask over it in three minutes and it stays put. Reason: it's Acrylic Urethane. Urethane primer, Urathane paint = chemical bond. See the trend here?

4. Urethane clear coat: Here's where I wander off the reservation a little. I have shot them all, and to be honest with you, I can't find a differce between the cheap stuff and the name brand, it's all equally hard to shoot. Practice is the only way to get good at it. I don't recommend speed clear for canopies, because it shrinks too much over decals. But other than that, Urethane clear is Urethane clear. They say the expensive stuff has better UV protectant, but I have canopies that are two years old, shot with Omni clear (PPG'S nasty cheap alternative) and I just don't see any difference in color or shine form the ones I have shot with PPG or HOK clear. So for helis, go with the cheaper, Urethane clear, and save yourself some money. If you're shooting a $4,000 paint job on a custom bike however,(CYA) use PPG because it has a warrenty.

In closing, Urethane primer, Urethane Paint and Urethane Clear equals success.

Hope all this helps. Cheers Dave

MA Fury Extreme,Vibe 50, JR 9303,YS,Vblades, Don't blame me, I voted for Jimmy Buffet!

08-13-2006 Over year old.
ESWLFSE

Elite Veteran

Cedar Park, TX

Excellent post Dave, and the tidbit of info about the 4oz. quantities of HOK base from TCP Globe was golden. I've painted for almost as long as you but never did much with custom graphics. I think I'll give it a try this winter now that I can get a few colors for less than it would cost me to have a canopy painted.

08-13-2006 Over year old.
w.pasman

Elite Veteran

Netherlands

I have this orange skin on my current canopy as well. I left it that way and maybe it's even useful to avoid nasty reflections while flying.

How thick do you have to apply clearcoat in order to be able to sand down this orange effect? If I remember right I applied only 3 layers of clearcoat when this orange skin effect appeared and I stopped there being afraid that it would get worse with each next layer.

BTW I was using 2component lacquer, not urethane. I heard that urethane will get a slight yellow cast after some time and I didn't want that.

Is it possible to sand down this 2-component clearcoat in the same way?

I saw there is also acrylic lacquer clearcoat available. Is that stuff fuel resistant and compatible with standard spray cans? And can this be sanded smooth?

08-13-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
C-DOG

Veteran

SunShineState

In too have quite a few 15 to be exact years of painting experience.

It is still a great idea to use an adhesion promotor such as bull dog.I have painted bleach bottle canopies just by scuffing with grey scotch bright, applying bull dog straight over the plastic, then start applying base coat.All the urethane primer is over kill.You do not need to prep plastic for paint with 180 grit sand paper.We do not even use sand paper on brand new OEM plastic bumpers for automobiles. As far as the wet look on your clear coat, It is all about (atomazation)=How well you gun breaks up the solid you are spraying.If your end result has to much orange peel try turning up your air pressure, or reducing your clear a little bit.It all depends on what product you are using.I have painted probably 40 canopies and have yet to have to wet sand and buff one. As a professional painter I would lightly wetsand and re-clear before I would buff a heli canopy.Get your self a test panel to practice on, Getting clear to flow out slick takes a liitle practice, but I do it everyday, For a living and a qt of compound lasts me at least 6 months.!!!!!Also keep in mind try to get your first coat of clear as slick as you can get it, because once it flashes and you apply your second coat it will look like the foundation.Just a free tip of the day.Will be glad to answer any questions reguarding painting.Feel free to pm me.Good luck

Good Luck Corey I PAY-PAL

08-13-2006 Over year old.
Dave Yost

rrAdvertiser

San Diego Ca, USA

I think this post is in ref to Fiberglass canopies. Plastic canopies in another ball of wax. Good advice though.

Lacquer clear shrinks and your decals show the edges after a few outings in the sun. I am not sure that you can even get lacquer clear in California any more. I have two canopies that are 2.5 years old done in Omni urethane clear. No yellowing, they look brand new.

Time to get away from the key board and go flying!!

Have a good one Gents

Dave

MA Fury Extreme,Vibe 50, JR 9303,YS,Vblades, Don't blame me, I voted for Jimmy Buffet!

08-13-2006 Over year old.
w.pasman

Elite Veteran

Netherlands

C-DOG

thanks for this tip
If your end result has to much orange peel try turning up your air pressure, or reducing your clear a little bit.
At that time I had a throw-away sprayer with a built-in gas bottle.So there was no way tweaking it although I might have tried more thinner now I know this. This time I have a mini clearcoat spray gun and a compressor so I hope that it works out better this time.

08-13-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
ESWLFSE

Elite Veteran

Cedar Park, TX

The key to minimizing orange-peel is to use the correct reducer for the temperature as much as proper spray technique. If your reducer is too fast the best technique in the world will not yield a nice gun finish. The clear application has to have enough time to flow out flat before the solvents evaporate.

There is no such thing as a two-part lacquer. All laquers dry by solvent evaporation (= shrinkage) even though you may add additional thinner to spray it. Lacquers become very hard and brittle and are not UV stable.

Acrylic urethanes cure by chemical reaction just like epoxy or polyester resin. Your waste paint can be saved and it will harden fairly solid within a few days time. These clearcoats are very tough, remain semi-flexible, and will not yellow. You can clearcoat plastic headlights and taillights on a new car to prevent dulling and yellowing over time.

I always start with a light first coat to provide a solid "bite" for subsequent coats. An initial heavy wet coat is very likely to run otherwise. Generally the light coat followed by one good wet coat will provide plenty of clear for a 2000 grit sand and buff on a canopy.

Practice on scrap materials to develop your technique.

08-13-2006 Over year old.
angelob

Key Veteran

Janesville WI

Everyone, thanks for the input - this is very informative.

Dave,

I'll give HOK a shot and see what happens. I do use the Omni clear and from what I can tell it seems to work well and can't beat the price on the stuff.

Thanks again,
Angelo

08-13-2006 Over year old.
C-DOG

Veteran

SunShineState

As I stated in earlier post

I would be more than happy to assist anyone on painting issues.Just shoot me a PM. I can even call you back to help you out.I have been at this painting thing for a long time, and am certified by many paint manufactors.So I will steer you in the right dirrection.Just ask.Good Luck to all

Good Luck Corey I PAY-PAL

08-14-2006 Over year old.
WATCH  3 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ]29911 viewsPOST REPLY
Thunder Power RC . Mikado . Futaba-RC
. .

Blades and Night Flying

 >

Wet sand and polish clearcoat - what to use?

w.pasman

Elite Veteran

Netherlands

There is no such thing as a two-part lacquer. All laquers dry by solvent evaporation (= shrinkage) even though you may add additional thinner to spray it. Lacquers become very hard and brittle and are not UV stable.
OK maybe this is a terminology issue. Anyway this is what I use (octoral MS clear coat C60) and it requires to mix 2 parts to be mixed, plus tinner as needed.

08-14-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
ESWLFSE

Elite Veteran

Cedar Park, TX

And its called a lacquer? It must be something better if it uses a hardener.

08-14-2006 Over year old.
w.pasman

Elite Veteran

Netherlands

And its called a lacquer? It must be something better if it uses a hardener.
There are only cryptic codes on the bottles. I dunno

08-16-2006 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
WATCH  3 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ]29911 viewsPOST REPLY
Heli-Max . Scorpion Power System . Ron's RC Helicopters
. .

Blades and Night Flying

 >

Wet sand and polish clearcoat - what to use?

 Print TOPIC Advertisers 

Topic Subscribe

Sunday, October 26 - 7:55 am - Copyright © 2000-2014 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies