RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - Apex gone bad

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > Apex gone bad

smallplanes
Key Veteran
Location: Timmonsville,S.C. ,USA

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I think i might have found the problem a friend of mine did a search on the web and found the my charger(Hobbico ACCU CYCLE ELITE) has been known to damage lipo packs that are large. I'm going to buy a eflite 4 pack battery charger(or i think its a eflite) and 2 Thunder power 2100 packs and a TP 205 balancer. I have 2 brand new apex batterys now and i'm going to try the TP 2100's i will let you know in a little while what is the best pack.

Thanks for the help

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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Neil Walker
Senior Heliman
Location: Victoria, BC - Canada

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If you are puffing packs, and *all* of the cells are puffing, then either you are over-charging or over-discharging, period. Anything else (bad cell, physical damage, etc.) then most likely you are going to see a single cell puff. But if you have several packs and all the cells in each pack are puffed, then it is almost certain that you're looking at over-charging or over-discharging. A good quality (as in accurate) digital voltmeter would be a decent investment. Check your voltages after a charge and after a flight (after the voltage has had a chance to stabilize). Don't go above 4.2 v/cell or below 3.7 v/cell at rest and you should be safe.

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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clive45
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Location: NSW Australia

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80% is the magic figure for charge 2200*80%=1760Ma. Either time your flights and check against charge put back and ajust accordingle or fit a lipo alarm. They will check the voltage all the time and let you know when to stop flying. This is good as when packs are getting old or just had enough it warns you and you land safe.
I have the unit with two strobe lights and two nav lights and beeper.
Check it out at this site. Its the lipo V2
www.tjtrc.com
This way you can fly with out worrying. The strobes flash normally, when the go on solid and the beeper goes, you land. They are set for 3.2V which is safe for your packs.

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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robl45
Key Veteran
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

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everyone keeps talking about voltages, my packs aren't going above 4.2 volts nor are they going below 3.2 volts. After a flight, they are at 3.47 or so. So indeed if there is a problem with these packs and clearly it doesnt' seem to be the voltage, lets try to figure out what it may be.

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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clive45
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Location: NSW Australia

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But how much are you putting back into them. The voltage will rise after you stop the motor with no load, but that does not mean that the voltage was below 3.2V when flying. Hence use a lipo alarm. If you are putting more than 80% back in then most likly you are going below 3.2 and overdischarging. Also if your motor etc draws more than the battery can discharge your voltage will be constantly going below what it should. So you see there is a lot of things that can cause the problem on there own or together. You need to measure your current draw when flying and see if that is above the C rating for your battery. This all assumes the battery was OK in the first place. If you continually overdraw current the battery will not be as good next time and the situation gets worse and worse.
What temps do you get when you land on battery.motor, esc???????
You need all parts of the puzzle to see the picture.

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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rotarypower3
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

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Quote
I just flew a pack, have the cutoff set on the align 25 amp esc I'm using. All cells are at 3.47 volts or 10.41 volts or so. I think I put about 1900 back into this 2100

Quote
I just fly till it cuts out, the battery voltage doesn't go that low.

Resting voltage should be around 11.1V for long lipo life.
Putting 1900mA back into a 2100mAH pack is WAY too much.
Using the LVC on an Align esc will drain your packs too much.

This is why your lipos are dead!

..

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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clive45
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Location: NSW Australia

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3.47 is about 78% of the top of my head and that at rest probably more like 2.8-2.9 under load. Far too low. Damage is done.

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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pacjax
Senior Heliman
Location: Inland Empire,Calif.

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[quote]I think i might have found the problem a friend of mine did a search on the web and found the my charger(Hobbico ACCU CYCLE ELITE) has been known to damage lipo packs that are large.

I've been using an ACCU CYCLE ELITE for over a year on Apex 2200,2100 and TP2100 and have not one problem with this charger or batteries. Possible problem with your heli. Check all linkage and gear mesh to make sure there is no binding. Hope you locate the problem..

"Each One Should Teach One"

~~TEAM OCHC~~

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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smallplanes
Key Veteran
Location: Timmonsville,S.C. ,USA

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Well by my charger i have never got the bat. under about 10.8 volts and my charger will not charge the bat over 12.6, so if i over amped it i don't know how. I checked my bat when i landed and it was 105.6 degs i then checked the esc it was i think about 79 degs and the motors was 81 degs and that was with the new apex 2100 15c bats do you think i'm ok at these temps? I think i might also install the alarm like clive45 said.

Thanks for the help

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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koko76
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashua, N.H. USA

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Quote
everyone keeps talking about voltages, my packs aren't going above 4.2 volts nor are they going below 3.2 volts. After a flight, they are at 3.47 or so.

Unless you are logging the voltages in flight, it really isn't going to be a useful figure. You can't measure resting voltage and assume thats as low as the pack will go. Voltage sag, especially under high pitch/large pinion/poor setup can be significant. If you look at a graph of battery voltage over time in a flight you will see it go down steadily in a curve over the flight, then rebound when you set the heli down and spool down. I use the Eagle Tree micro recorder for this stuff.

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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Grant H
Key Veteran
Location: No where right now....

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I think i might have found the problem a friend of mine did a search on the web and found the my charger(Hobbico ACCU CYCLE ELITE) has been known to damage lipo packs that are large.

I have neaver heard of this. I have and use that charger for all my lipo packs and have never had a problem.

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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Neil Walker
Senior Heliman
Location: Victoria, BC - Canada

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Quote
everyone keeps talking about voltages, my packs aren't going above 4.2 volts nor are they going below 3.2 volts. After a flight, they are at 3.47 or so. So indeed if there is a problem with these packs and clearly it doesnt' seem to be the voltage, lets try to figure out what it may be.

Clearly it *is* voltage - you showed the problem right there: 3.47 after a flight is too low. They should probably be no lower than 3.7. And I'll say it one more time: If all of the cells are puffing then really your only choices are over-charge or over-discharge. From what you just wrote above, over-discharge seems to be the case.

Oh, and Koko76, you have no clue what you are talking about and should probably refrain from posting. Resting voltage is all he cares about here. How far the voltage lags in flight is totally irrelevant. Same with the person a few posts up claiming that under load if the voltage dips too low the damage is done. Bulls**t. The voltage drops when a load is put on it, and it will vary depending on a whole number of things.. how far it drops under load tells you nothing. What indicates the state of charge of the cell is the voltage it ends up at after it has been allowed to stabilize. And 3.47 is too low. Don't go below 3.7 resting. Problem solved, he's over-discharging the packs, end of story.

Good luck

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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robl45
Key Veteran
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

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yes, I think you are right, I will set the low volt cutoff on the align esc I"m using to 70% instead of 65% and try not to hit it anymore. Just recharged after about 8 minutes of flight and only put in like 850mah so now I'm not flying long enough.

05-25-2006 Over year old.

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koko76
Senior Heliman
Location: Nashua, N.H. USA

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Well, my actual, physical measurements bear out what I say. I've got the graphs, and a couple packs with quite a few logged cycles that say what I do works.
You CAN damage packs by drawing them too low in flight, and the resting voltage will show up ok. Don't belive me, go for it, and replace your packs. Or set your house on fire by damaging cells and then charging them. Do what you like, and I'll do what I know to be safe and work.

05-26-2006 Over year old.

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smallplanes
Key Veteran
Location: Timmonsville,S.C. ,USA

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Well if i'm over discharging by flying 8 or 9 mins then it sounds like most of the people on here are too and if i'm over charging then the charger is messed up because my charger will not let it over charge the battery. Like i said before i can see one battery going bad but four.

Thanks for the help guys

05-26-2006 Over year old.

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robl45
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Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

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yea, my charger will not let it overcharge either, but it is as the batteries are charging to 12.70-12.75. After you charge one, put a good voltmeter on it and see what the final voltage is. Also, you have a 430 motor, what pinion are you running? I'm getting 10 minutes of flight time or a little more but I'm using a 420 motor with a 13 tooth pinion.

05-26-2006 Over year old.

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clive45
Veteran
Location: NSW Australia

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12.6 is as far as you need to go otherwise you are doing damage.I also get 10 mins with 13T with 420 motor. I also use a lipo alarm set to 3.2v per cell or 9.9 for the pack. It tells me when to land and recharging I put back 82% 1800ma into a 2200ma battery.
I certainly dont like 12.7+ volts my battery measures 12.6 with the Fluke and shows 12.6 on my hyperion EOS5i.
I think the charher needs to go back

05-26-2006 Over year old.

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gordo high
Senior Heliman
Location: down yonder in the south

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robl45, In your post above mine, you said it was a 2100 pack, that's why I said it was too much to draw 1900mah out of it.

Honey, I just need this one more thing and then I'm set..

05-26-2006 Over year old.

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TRex888
Veteran
Location: Monmouth, UK

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Here's my 2 cents. Probability of multiple packs going bad is low but not impossible.

From my personnal experience the resting voltage of a pack should be above 3.7V per cell if I'm using less than 80% of capacity. The voltage measured is NOT an indication of capacity used. You can only have an idea of capacity used by measuring or estimating how much mAh you put back in.

Additionally, with some of the newer higher C rated packs the voltage under load holds very very well. Much greater than 3.2V per cell. I could not find graphs of the Apex pack but here's one of a similar Align one http://www.align.com.tw/shop/produc...products_id=973

The graph shows almost constant 10V for 3S under 14-15C load for 4 mins. I cannot imagine much capacity is left after this and the voltage will not save further abuse.

Therefore, setting a LiPo to 3.2V per cell does not necessary gurantee you have not abused the cells. I personnal have my LiPo alarm set to 3.2V per cell, but understand that this is the absolute last defense in looking after my packs and do not rely on it for telling when to land, especially now that I fly far and high enough away not to hear or see the LED or buzzer. It is only really used after a re-build during test hovering to pick up and set-up isses. Discharging down to 3.2V once or twice during it's lifetime will hopefully not damage it too much.

05-26-2006 Over year old.

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robl45
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Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

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I just charged my pack on my charger checking voltage as I went, I saw voltage hit 12.60 and disconnected the pack but when I put the voltmeter back on it was at 12.45. The pack is supposed to read 12.60 resting right? So that would mean it needs to charge to like 12.70 on the charger or so?

05-27-2006 Over year old.

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > Apex gone bad

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