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e-New & Emerging Electrics > EP 400 Build Thread
 
 
Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

My Posts This: Topic  Forum

64 pitch is a finer tooth.
04-07-2007 Over year old.
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Lil_jonnnny
Heliman
Location: London

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Does it matter, if the diameter of the pinion is different from the kyosho's one? As the ones i saw today, the diameter of the pinion is bigger.

And also, i'm still having trouble finding the Robinson Racing 64P pinion.
04-07-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yes, it DOES matter.

If you use the wrong pitch diameter pinion, you'll destroy the plastic gears on your EP400 since they won't mesh properly. Use 64P ONLY, do NOT use a 48P gear.

Here is a very short explanation of gear pitch...

http://www.robotobjects.com/Techtip...h-Explained.asp

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
04-07-2007 Over year old.
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Lil_jonnnny
Heliman
Location: London

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Ohh OK...But it's gona be hard to find a 64P Pinion.
04-08-2007 Over year old.
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Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		If you can get metric pinions easier it is a .8 module gear.
04-08-2007 Over year old.
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Dwight
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chicago, IL

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Daves answer is wrong. You must use the correct pitch but the diameter of the pinion does not matter. You will just need to adjust the engine position. The stock pinion is 20 teeth but if you change the engine you will need to get the proper pinion to match your engine kv rating and rpm desired. The diameter WILL be a different.

Dwight
04-08-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Dwight -- Perhaps I wasn't clear in my explanation. The pitch of the teeth on these gears is indeed "64 pitch". It's obvious that if you change the number of teeth on a gear, keeping the same tooth pitch, that the diameter of the gear MUST change. That would be the pitch diameter. A 12-tooth 64P pinion is by default much smaller in diameter than a 42 tooth, 64P gear.

But, if you don't use a 64P gear, you'll destroy the gears on the EP400, regardless of the gear's diameter.

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Atually, gear terminology is pretty easy to trip over.

The 64 pitch teeth should actually be referred to as 64 DP, or diametral pitch. This means there are 64 teeth per inch as measured along the circle described by the pitch diameter. Diametral Pitch IS different than the Pitch Diameter, I apologize for being unclear.

Therefore, the 48DP pinions that Li'l Johnny found have 48 teeth per inch as opposed to the required 64. They're bigger, and will tear up the smaller gears.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
04-08-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		YES!

Decent flying weather at last. Middle 50s, light winds, I went flying for the first time since January 6th today.

I got one flight on the stretched EP400XP. I'm impressed so far. The extra rotor disc area makes for a heli that feels very light in the air, while the extra rotor diameter makes for a very stable machine.

I've said that the EP400XP feels like its bigger brothers in the air. With the larger rotor disk and longer tail boom, it feels even MORE like the bigger helis. At the end of the flight, the battery pack was lukewarm, the Just Go Fly 450TH was not breathing hard.

I'll have to get more flights on the stretched heli, but so far, I'm pleased with the results.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
04-15-2007 Over year old.
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Limp
Heliman
Location: Krautcity, Germany

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hello. Thank you guys for this huge information about the EP400/XP.
A short introduction of myself: I'm a 36 year old guy, flying r/c-helicopters since I had first contact with them at the age of 10.
I fly various GP and EP. I've got two of the EP400 as well. One upgraded, the other one as an XP. With both I have the same problem. The tail pinion (CA2024) gets more and more abraded. The play between CA2024 and CA2020 (spur gear) was adjusted with a piece of paper.
I think the solution of my problem is to change the tail pinion into one, made of steel or brass. The original tail pinion is made of aluminium. Is there anyone of you with the same problem?
Hope you can understand my poor english...
04-21-2007 Over year old.
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CostasL
Heliman
Location: Athens, Greece

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		MR blades for EP400

Hello people
I have a question on main rotor blades:

My EP400 uses the stock wooden blades which are very light, about 17 gr. each.

A friend has showed me a pair of fiberglass MR blades from a Walkera 36, which are about the same size (only 4mm shorter), with a nice symmetrical airfoil and generally very well made. The only thing is that they are much heavier (28gr each, almost double the weight of the wooden blades.

What would happen if I used these blades? I use the standard Kyosho brushless motor (2750kv I think) with a 32T pinion and I do not do any 3D, I just like to fly in a "scale" way, just like a real helicopter would.
Any ideas? Has anyone tried to fly with these blades?

Costas
05-14-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Being about 4mm shorter (assuming that you're measuring from the bolt hole to the tip on both sets) will cause a slight decrease in performance as you're decreasing the rotor diameter by 8mm, and the rotor disk area changes as the square of the radius (that old Pi x R x R thing).

This will give you a slightly higher rotor disk loading, so the heli will fly a bit less lively.

The heavier blades will add to the overall heli weight, again a negative in the grand scheme.

Since you state that your style of flying is fairly benign and you're not intending to go the 3D route, you'll probably be OK. You'll quickly adjust to the different flight characteristics. The fact that the blades you're considering using are fiberglass instead of wood covered with shrink wrap may give you a blade with less drag, compensating a bit for the loss of rotor disk to some extent. You'll get a slightly higher head speed, but the inertia of the disk will be quite different, giving you different handling characteristics.

All the analysis aside, you don't have much to lose. Borrow a set and give it a try. Let us know what you find.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
05-15-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I need to correct something Dwight posted a few posts earlier...

Quote 
If you can get metric pinions easier it is a .8 module gear.

That is absolutely WRONG. The pitch of the EP400/XP pinion and drive gears is 0.4 module. NOT 0.8.

The 64P pinions that work with the EP400 are VERY VERY close to 0.4 module. If you go out and try to use a 0.8 module pinion, it will NOT mesh at all with the drive gears of the EP400/XP. 0.8 Module works out to be very close to 32P gears. Those teeth are WAY too big and will only rip your EP400 drive train to pieces. You'd also find that a 32-tooth, 0.8 module pinion would be REAL BIG in diameter, and may not fit between the frames!

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
05-15-2007 Over year old.
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cali30
Heliman
Location: sitting down

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		MR blades

i have found that SAB blades for the zoom work very well they are 280mm long
they have seen me through 3 crashes and ok they a bit scruffy now but they work
im running a head speed of about 2200 rpm on a unmodified ep400 and it out performs all of my other helis (caliber 30, Hawk 50, Eco8) the only problem i have is getting hold of spares.
05-29-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Well, I've finally gotten some time to fly the stretched EP400XP. The results are disappointing.

Though overall, the heli flies well, is stable, and has more than enough lift and power to fly well, it lacks the agility I've been looking for. I believe I've run into two factors that limit the XP. First, is the collective pitch mechanism. The frame mounted pitch lever, the pitch slider ring on the MR shaft, that wire riding in the slotted mainshaft, sliding the washout base up and down just isn't precise as it could be. Second, it appears that the main rotor grips/bearings don't like the extra mass of a set of CF 320 MR blades. I can't put my finger on exactly WHAT the problem is, the collective control just doesn't feel solid and positive. Perhaps I need to replace the HS56 servo I'm using with a HS-65. But I think that would be throwing good money after bad.

Perhaps the grips and bearings are fine, but maybe it's the execution of the collective pitch stuff in the head.

I have plenty of vertical performance with the stretched heli -- upright or inverted. I dropped a couple of teeth on my pinion, I think I'm down to 32 teeth now. Plenty of head speed for aerobatics. Rolls are nice, collective is touchy, and the heli loops poorly.

I've always had trouble getting this little bird to do a nice, round, effortless loop. It seems to have no problem with the first half -- getting to the top of the loop, but getting it "past center" and over to the back half of the loop is plain work.

I flew the stretched EP400XP this afternoon, followed by a flight of my Align Trex 450SA. The two helis are very close in size, weight, and power, but to be honest, the Align Trex 450SA runs circles around the stretched EP400XP. The comparison isn't even close. The SA also outperforms the stock EP400XP model. And THIS coming from a flyer who was ready to dump his Trexes about this time last year due to overall kit quality problems and performance problems. Align has listened and the SA version is a very nice, affordable, EP heli.

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Perhaps the newest offering from Kyosho -- the 450V version will fly as well as the Trex. After all, with the 450V, Kyosho has FINALLY dumped the mickey mouse collective pitch mechanism of the EP400/EP400XP and has gone with a full 120-degree CCPM swash mix, and has dumped the EP400XP head in favor of a design that for all practical purposes, looks like one scaled down from the fine flying Caliber 5. Perhaps the 450V will finally be a capable EP machine from Kyosho. I'm not sure, however, that I'll want to be the guinea pig on this one.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
06-25-2007 Over year old.
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Griffin
Senior Heliman
Location: MI

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Tons of usefull information here. I picked up the ep caliber 400 over christmas. I'm just starting to get it equiped. I have a hacker a20-6xl & x-30 esc for power and a gy240 gyro. I still need to pick out servos and a rx. I'm looking for a few suggestions as to which ones will fit the best I'm leaning twords hitec or futaba. I have the motor esc and gyro mounted. The canopy is trimmed and ready to be painted, just waiting for funding to finish the parts. I had more then enough too but I couldn't resist the temptation to get a belt cp. Its on its way here sometime next week. My how these little things suck you in so quick. It all started with the havok my son got for his birthday. These will be my first venture into small electric. I have a JR ergo 60 and few planes.
12-30-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I'd suggest that you use Hitec HS-65's in the EP400.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
12-30-2007 Over year old.
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Griffin
Senior Heliman
Location: MI

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		That looks like a good choice, I noticed the new version already has a hole in the center for mounting they should work good. Any good suggestions for upgrades with this thing? I was thinking of getting the tail mount for the rudder servo. I plan on keeping this a sport flyer no 3d or anything crazy. So far I'm happy with the quality seems like it should hold up well.
12-31-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Upgrades to the EP400. I don't know if you got the EP400 or the EP400XP version, I'm guessing that you got the EP400.

The best upgrade for it would have been to get the Kyosho 450V instead as it has pull-pull CCPM controls, and a head that resembles the current crop of larger Kyosho helis. It also address ALL of the problems I enumerated in this thread. It's a much improved heli, even over the EP400XP version.

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But, since you didn't go that route and have the EP400...

Lose the bottom mounted battery pack as the stock kit has. It puts the CG WAY too low for decent flying, and makes LiPo installation difficult, since it's not really designed for a LiPo pack.

The two pics below show how I added a battery tray made out of 1/32 inch birch ply from the LHS. The felt keeps the battery from sliding all over.



Kyosho introduced the EP400XP AFTER I made my homemade battery tray -- here is how they re-designed the EP400 batttery tray in the EP400XP -- looks just like mine...



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The stock tail rotor shaft is soft -- too soft, and bends easily. If you read all of this thread, you'll see that it gave me fits. Chris at RC Heliworks sent me a Kyosho part number EH64 -- a tail rotor shaft from a different Kyosho bird, it worked wonders. Chris has the EH64 in stock. It's worth the few extra dollars.

Kyosho also sells a titanium TR shaft -- CA2100 for something like $11. Chris doesn't have it in stock, he can probably get it for you, or you can get it from Kyosho America. I'd stick with the EH64 and save yourself $7.

The EH64 TR shaft at $4 is well worth the money.

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The main rotor blades are pretty good, and pretty tough. I had three serious crashes with this bird before I stretched it, and the MR blades survived all three wrecks. If you can find some 280 - 290 CF blades, that might be a good investment.

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The tail boom servo mount from the EP400XP -- CA2046 -- (and the linkage to hook it up -- CA2060 and EH45A links) are well worth the additional investment. The stock mounting location of the TR servo for the EP400 (and the attendant horrid pushrod arrangement) is just bad. The tail boom mount parts make for a much better TR setup. Well worth the investment.

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Another upgrade can be expensive, or with a little work, inexpensive and just as effective. The expensive route is to replace the stock plastic swashplate with the swasplate from the EP400XP (CNC aluminum -- CA2061).

The inexpensive route is to saw the balls off the existing swashplate, and replace them with the Kyosho steel balls.

In the first two pictures above, you can see how I replaced all the plastic balls on the swash. The third picture shows the XP CNC swash.

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I found that the two ball bearings in the TR grips of the stock EP400 didn't last too long. They went bad and notchy very quickly. The EP400XP tail rotor hub is a bit different than that of the EP400. It was redesigned to use two ball bearings per grip, and works much much better. The TR hub from the XP is CA2056, it needs four bearings -- PN BRG020O -- that's an "O" at the end, not a zero.

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If you're into spending a lot more on upgrades -- you can upgrade all the links and levers up on the head to get rid of all the Z-bend stuff, replacing all above the swashplate with the XP parts.

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I went the very expensive route -- look in my gallery for the EP400 to EP400XP Upgrade section. There's a picture of all the parts needed to upgrade the EP400 to the XP version. There's also a list somewhere above in this thread that details the parts needed for the changeover. The down side is that you can nearly buy an EP400XP or for that matter, a 450V for not a lot more money.

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Hope this list of upgrades and such doesn't scare you off....

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
12-31-2007 Over year old.
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Griffin
Senior Heliman
Location: MI

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Thanks for all the information dkshema. I do have the ep400. Looks like I will get the tail shaft and servo mount for sure. I'm going to build a battery holder like you did as well. I'm not going to mess with the swashplate or linkages for now. They seem pretty tight and should get me in the air. I'll be considering them if they start to wear quickly or I break something and need to tear it apart anyways. Does the canopy still fit ok with your battery tray in the front? I painted mine lastnight It turned out pretty good.
12-31-2007 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yes, the canopy fits fine, just double check the mount that you make, get the slant to the battery just right, make sure there is plenty of clearance, then fix the mount to the frame.

Overall, the EP400 is a fun little machine, feels like it's bigger brothers in the air, it just turns out not to be as aerobatic as I had hoped in its stock form. For fun flying and some mild stuff - loops, rolls, inverted flight, it is a nice flyer.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
01-01-2008 Over year old.
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