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e-New & Emerging Electrics > EP 400 Build Thread
 
 
dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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This thread started out life as a post by Rayysmans titled "EP 400 Help?" That thread can be found here:

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t220805p1/

There are enough people asking questions about the EP 400, and we are starting to get some technical info as well.

I've opened this thread as a way to maybe get a useful technical discussion going on this new Kyosho bird.

I've copied a few of my posts from the thread mentioned above, here, as fodder to get the ball rolling.

Dave
12-15-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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I've started unpacking the EP400 and taking pictures along the way. I've posted the first batch up on my gallery.



More closeups on the way as I build and fly. I'll also be shooting some size comparisons between the EP and a T-REX 450X-V2 here.

Already, the EP MR blades are about 20 mm shorter than the Align 315 woodies. Still have to check the root dimension and a few other dimensions, maybe some of those Mavrikk glass T-Rex blades will fit, and be a bit longer in the process for more disc area.

Dave
12-15-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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Added more pictures to the gallery. Some side-by-side comparisons with a T-Rex 450X-V2.

As for the kit, it is nearly an RTF heli, not an ARF. About all that is left for the buyer to do is install the electronics, paint and assemble the canopy, and bolt on the rotor blades.

I've read a lot about slop in the head stuff. I'll find out more about this in the next few days, but right now, with no electronics in it, the head controls seem to be quite slop-free. Some have reported that the balls on the swash don't quite fit the plastic links -- the plastic links are "too big". They do move a tiny bit if you tug on them, but the are firmly held on the ball, and at least at this point, don't appear to contribute any real slop to the control system.

I've also read about slop in the washout and pitch slider mechanism. Again, at this point, everything is ship-shape and I don't notice any play in the mechanism.

Slop, if any, will show up as I get the servos installed, and afterwards, as I get some air-time on the mechanics.

I am, at this point of the build, impressed at how free the entire MR control system is when compared to the two T-Rex helis I own. I am also impressed with the obvious quality of parts in this kit as compared to that of the Align kits. The plastic is much better grade, parts fit is standard Kyosho quality

The main rotor gear train is unique. The motor pinion drives a molded gear that contains a 20-tooth pinion, and a larger 67 tooth spur gear. The motor's pinion gear meshes with the 67-tooth spur. When the 67-tooth spur turns, the 20-tooth pinion molded below meshes with a 105-tooth spur that contains the one-way clutch, and that drives the MR shaft.

The 20-tooth to 105-tooth gear set provides a fixed reduction ratio of 5.25:1. The number of teeth on the motor pinion (which can vary from 16 to 50 teeth -based upon a search for 64 pitch pinions with an 1/8 inch bore), coupled with the 67-tooth spur gives the builder an easy method to vary the overall gear reduction.

With a 20-tooth pinion driving the 67-tooth spur, there is an intermediate reduction ratio of 3.35:1. The 3.35:1 ratio coupled with the fixed 5.25:1 reduction yields an out-of-the-box overall reduction ratio of 17.58:1.

Poking around on the Tower Hobbies website, looking for 64 pitch pinions with an 1/8th inch bore shows that you can pick up pinions in one-tooth increments from 16 to 50 teeth. This means the EP 400 can be run with an overall reduction ratio in the range of 7.035: 1 up to 22:1. Seems that with this kind of versatility, we ought to be able to find a motor/pinion combo that works well in the EP.

The main rotor hub looks to be a miniaturized copy of the Caliber 30 head. The kit ships with some alternate parts to allow the damping in the head to be altered easily. The dampers are O-rings ala the T-Rex, but the O-rings are much larger and more robust than those in the T-Rex.

The MR grips look like modified TR grips from a Caliber 30. The TR pitch slider looks to be much more precise and slop free than the original T-Rex sliders. The entire TR assembly and control system seems to be executed much better than the plastic T-Rex equivalents.

The drive system for the TR belt is very robust compared to the T-Rex.

The kit main frames are milled from 1mm thick Carbon Fiber. I haven't installed any of the electronics (UPS says they arrive tomorrow) but there appears to be plenty of room for the various goodies. I'll post pics on the radio installation when that part of the build is finished.

The canopy is a two-piece affair, consisting of clear top and bottom halves. These can be masked and painted from the inside, harking back to the old Schluter Heliboy / Superior / HeliStar/ Miniboy /Champion...days. The halves are held together by stickers (tape) instead of glue. Wonder how that will hold up? I haven't looked closely at the plastic to see what it might be made from, or how paintable it is.

The main rotor blades look functional. As can be seen in some of the photos I posted in my gallery, the blades are wood, covered with a clear heat shrink material. The blades lack a plastic root reinforcement. The T-Rex started out this way, but Align has gravitated to making wood blades with a plastic root reinforcement. A small brass bushing fits into the hole in the blade root, and it is through this bushing that the MR blade bolts go. The MR blade bolts thread into the lower part of the MR grip. I guess this is functional. Time will tell.

With regard to the MR blades, I'd prefer a good, solid MR blade root reinforcement over the simple brass bushing with these wood blades. I'd also prefer that the MR blade bolt thread into a small hex lock nut as the T-Rex and most other helis these days do. Kyosho should add the reinforcement plates as this would not only improve the strength of the root, but would also improve the fit of the blades in the MR grips. I believe there are some CF blades in the works. It may be possible to put some Mavrikk 305 mm CF blades on the EP, but at this point I don't know if the added length (about 20 mm per blade) would cause problems with smacking the TR blades.

Main rotor collective pitch is accomplished by using a sliding rod that moves in a milled out slot in the main rotor shaft. This reminds me of the way the older Schluter helis achieved collective control. It worked quite well for them, I expect it to be trouble free here, as well.

Someone complained about the plastic swash and the plastic uniball that the swash swivels on. The swash doesn't look all that bad, and the ball appears to be either a nylon or a delrin type material. I would expect this to actually be a trouble-free system and fairly rugged. Time again, will tell.

A close look at pics of the head and TR reveals that Kyosho has had the Z-bend machine working overtime. Since the kit is new and has NO time on it, I am somewhat impressed at how tight the control system is -- I would have expected a lot of slop from the Z-bends. Perhaps time will tell how well this works out. Kyosho should rethink the Z-bend thing and find a way to get some decent ball links into the head and the TR system. This would make for much more satisfied customers in the long-run.

The motor mounting method and accessibility of the mount screws is by far much better than the T-Rex. The screws for the motor are readily available without having to fish around through the pitch mechanism as in the T-Rex. This should make motor experimentation a breeze, as it is easy to swap out motors. The motor mount itself has slotted holes to allow for a wide range of pinion diameters. And the slots for the motor mount screws actually line up with the mounting holes on the motors, they don't have to be hogged out as in the T-Rex motor mount.

Size-wise, if you look at the pics in my gallery, the EP400 is nearly identical to the T-Rex. Side-by-side comparison shows that the overall length, width and height are comparable. I haven't measured the rotor diameter, the TR diameter, or the flybar diameter, they look to be very close. Weight comparisons can't be made until I get the electronics installed.

Well, time to wind this down for now. More to come as I install some Hitec HS 56 servos, an Electron 6 RX, a GY401 gyro, and a Castle Creations Phoenix 35 ESC.

I think I'll toss a coin to see which motor to try first. The Align 430L/3550 or the JGF 450TH.

Flight tests may be delayed a bit due to the crappy Iowa winter weather. Nothing like wet heavy snow in the morning followed by drizzle in the mid-afternoon. I guess it beats the six or so inches of light, fluffy snow of last week, simply because it's not below zero in the morning!

Dave
12-15-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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Radio gear showed up about 30 minutes ago. Wheeee.

I trimmed the canopy halves this afternoon. I'm guessing the plastic is Lexan, or at least the stuff they make car bodies out of these days. None of the bleach bottle stuff. Very hard to cut, I used a sharp #11 X-Acto knife to score the plastic, carefully bend the plastic at the score line, and it snaps -- kind of like cutting glass. I then carefully cut the excess stock away and finished off the edges with some 400 grit wet-or-dry paper, used dry. The outer surface of the canopy is covered with a very thin plastic protective sheet. This stuff pulls right off, leaving a nice, shiny surface behind. Now I've got to dig out some paint and some masking stuff, and have at it.

There is supposed to be a roughly triangular cutout in the windshield, to act as a cooling duct for the motor. If anyone has already built his EP -- is it necessary to make this cutout? That plastic is a real pain in the a$$ to cut, I don't want to hack up the canopy any more than I have to.

More later.

Dave
12-15-2005 Over year old.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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It's a NACA Duct.

I already did it with a carbide burr in a Dremel.

TM
12-15-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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Tmoore -- you building one of these too, or are you one of the gang of three getting Chris' EP up and running?

Dave
12-15-2005 Over year old.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Already built and running.

TM
12-16-2005 Over year old.
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Caliber1
Senior Heliman
Location: Fort Worth, TX

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Quote 
Now I've got to dig out some paint and some masking stuff, and have at it.


Dave, are you going to paint your canopy from the inside?
12-16-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
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Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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Quote 
are you going to paint your canopy from the inside?


Yes, most likely. It will bring back those cherished memories from the early days......right!

Yes, it won't be a super showy or fancy paint scheme, but it will suffice. If you've looked at my gallery at all, you'll notice a plethora of bright yellow canopies. I suspect this will follow that theme as I've found the real bright yellow is much easier to see when zipping around. With these little birds, I need all the help I can get!

I'll track down some Testor's transparent Blue enamel as was common in the Heliboy days and try for the transparent blue tinted windscreen. Painting on the inside allows for a nice shine outside without having to do the clear coat thing.

Dave
12-16-2005 Over year old.
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ozace
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Location: melbourne, australia

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Nice thread, I have had mine going for a few months no and didnt cut out the cooling hole.
Pleas check you pinions , the Kyosho uses .4 mod make sure the ones you change to are the same, close enough is usuall not good enough, it will destroy the gear.

I have finally settled on 400f motor, 3500kv 2.3 shaft using the stock pinion.

we can never have too many, can we ?
12-16-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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A 0.4 module pinion works out to be the equivalent of 63.5 DP. Considering the overall diameter we're dealing with here, I believe a 64 DP pinion is close enough to work without any adverse affect at all on the rest of the drive train.

Dwight Schilling checked them out a few posts back after I recommended he take a look at the Robinson Racing stuff. He seems to believe they are fine, as well.

Dave
12-16-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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I got a bit of time this evening to work on the EP again. I started by mounting the Elevator, Aileron, and Collective servo. It's late, so I'll provide the words, and post some pics tomorrow when I have more time.

I chose HS56 servos based on some feedback from Chris at RCHeliworks, and Hoverking. They recommended a servo having at least one ball-bearing in the output shaft, as having tried EFlite S75s, they noticed trouble with servos centering. Based on how well the plastic links fit the control balls, I'd have to say that the centering fault is in the servo, not due to drag or friction in the control system. The recommended maximum size for servos in the EP 400 manual, and the need for a ball bearing kind of limited my choice to the HS56s or Airtronics 94091s, without going into some extensive research or big $$$. I settled for the HS56 based on the success people have had with these on the T-Rex.

The mounting method used for the aileron and elevator servo is unique, effective, and will work with any servo, no matter how many holes it has in the mounting tab. It consists of a plastic clip that fits over the end of the mounting ear which is held to the fuselage by a couple of 2x8 mm self-tapping screws. When installing the servos, make sure that you get the mount screws tight enough to keep the servo from moving around in the mount.

The control rod fabrication was quick and painless. I used the standard "X" shaped horns that ship with the HS56 servos, and the outermost hole in the arm which is just shy of 10 mm out from center. The instructions recommend that the hole for the control rod be somewhere in the range of 7.5 to 10.5 mm from center. I used a sharp #11 X-acto blade to enlarge the holes in the arms so they would accept the Z-bend end of the rod. Prior to whacking off the three unused arms on the horn, I centered each servo using my trusty 8103 TX, then figured out which of the four-positions of the arms got me the best centering. I had to tweak only the Aileron servo centering using the TX sub-trim (value of 20). Not sure why that was, maybe my TX needs a trip back to Horizon for a tune-up, maybe the servo is just a bit off. In any event, not a big problem

Note that with all four servos, the extra mounting tabs on the servo case had to be removed. This is easily accomplished by scoring the tab at its base using the tip of the #11 blade, then simply snapping off the tab. Quick, painless (unless that knife gets away from you) and makes a clean break needing no trimming.

The aileron and elevator servos were mounted, the horns installed, and the pushrods fabricated very quickly and painlessly.

The Collective pitch servo is a bit of a different story, this owing to my selection of the HS56s. If you choose to use these servos and remove the three extra mouting tabs, you're left with four holes in the remaining mounting ears, two on each ear. The EP 400 ships with two different mounts for the pitch (and rudder) servo, the size of the rectangular cutout being larger in one than the other. The HS56s fit the smaller of the two mounts very well with one exception. The mount is designed for servos having only one mounting hole on each tab that is centered in the tab. This means an HS 56 needs to have a third hole drilled in each mounting tab. With some difficulty (minor), the tabs were drilled, and a single screw on each tab was used to hold the servo down.

The mount must first be attached to the fuselage (using a couple of 2x8 mm self-tapping screws) , then the servo is screwed down (if you put the servo in the mount first, the servo body conveniently covers up one of the two screw locations for the mount in the fuselage). No biggie, but a pain if you already got the servo screwed down to the mount. It would be a bit easier to mount this (and the rudder) servo had Kyosho continued to use those nifty clips. Apparently, the mount can't be made long enough to accomodate them.

The collective rod was easily and quickly fabricated.

The recommended length for each pushrod is given in the assembly steps, and when these values were used, the swash came out pretty darn level, and the pitch lever ended up centered with the collective stick centered, and a linear 0 to 100 pitch curve in the TX. Mid-stick, 0 pitch. Looks good. I may have to tweak the zero-blade pitch later on when I get the MR blades installed. That will be accomplished by tweaking the pitch links up on the grips.

I still have to mount the TR servo, and it appears that I'll have to make the same accomodations to that servo's mount, as I did for the collective servo. Maybe tonight I'll think up a less painless mod to make mounting the pitch and rudder servos easier (of course, it would be child's play had I chosen the proper servo -- one with a single hole in each mounting tab).

When you install the servos, take the time to center the arm on each one then install and adjust its control rod before mounting the next servo.

A couple of recommendations to Kyosho for the control setup would be:

1. Lose the Z-bend and go with standard issue ball links.
2. Modify the pitch and rudder servo mounts to accept servos with mounting holes such as the HS56. (maybe adapt those neat little clips used on the other two servos).

In a previous post, I noted that the reported loose fit of some ball links hadn't been encountered. Tonight, when I snapped the aileron ball link on the swashplate control ball, I got the feeling that it should have snapped on with just a little more force than it required. I tugged on the link, it appears to be tight enough, and I don't think its in danger of popping off in flight. The amount of force needed to pop the elevator and pitch link was more than acceptable.

Kyosho should address the fit of the swash control ball links in future revisions of the EP.

With all three servos installed for the MR control, I plugged a battery into my RX, turned on the TX, and made sure the servos travelled in the correct direction, and fixed any problems here before proceeding. I should note that at this stage of completion, the servos saw very little, if any, resistance to control movement. In contrast, I had to hand-polish ALL of the balls in my two T-Rexes to produce ball links that weren't too tight, and that allowed my servos to work smoothly. I like the fact that I didn't have to waste a lot of time making each ball and link a custom fit with the EP 400.

Tomorrow, time permitting, I'll post pics to go along with this post over in the EP400 Gallery in my gallery. I'll also tackle the TR servo mount and adjustment, followed by programming my CC35 ESC, and figuring out how and where to mount the rest of the electonics.

After that, it's paint the canopy, mount the blades, set the pitch and throttle curves, then wait for decent weather.

This little chopper is a FAST build so far. The canopy seems to be the only time consuming assembly task.

Dave
12-17-2005 Over year old.
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tnbulldog
Senior Heliman
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Dave,

You might want to try a TRex Ball Link. I think you'll find that they may fit better than the standard Kyosho links.
12-17-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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I'll keep that in mind, maybe Align makes all their links too small for this reason.

Flybar question: Meanwhile, I was taking a closer look at the heli this morning and noticed that the flybar travel (the amount that it can tilt) is limited by the presence of an aluminum collar at the base of the main rotor hub, and the Jesus bolt goes through it. I assume this is a limiter to tame the heli down for novice flyers. The part doesn't seem to show up in the manual anywhere.

Have any other EP 400 owners run across this part, and have you removed it?

The part can be seen here:



at the base of the MR hub, the nut for the Jesus bolt is seen tightened down on it.

Dave
12-17-2005 Over year old.
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ozace
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Location: melbourne, australia

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I made that comment about the flybar tilt very early on an was told by the guru's here that is makes no difference and was not a problem

we can never have too many, can we ?
12-17-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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That collar will definitely limit the amount of differential cyclic pitch you get from the flybar when you romp on cyclic. I would imagine it would make a HUGE difference in the helicopter's agility.

The manual seems to make no reference to this part, it must have been added after the manual was printed and before the heli went into production. I guess once I get mine up and running, I'll have to see what happens if I remove it.

I asked Dwight Schilling about this part, he thought it was nothing more than a reinforcement for the base of the hub. I'm not so sure that is its purpose. Guess I'll have to find someone at Kyosho who can answer this question for sure.

Dave
12-18-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
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Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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Meanwhile, I've got the ESC, servos, gyro, and RX installed, along with the motor. I'm not that happy with the arrangement I've ended up with at present, but it's serviceable. I tried to keep the ESC and motor away from from the RX as far as possible. The ESC is up front, the RX on the left-rear of the chassis.

One thing about these small electrics is finding a good place to put everything.

Dave
12-18-2005 Over year old.
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ozace
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Location: melbourne, australia

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Sounds like you are getting close now. It will be a good read once you have it up and flying.

we can never have too many, can we ?
12-18-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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Got the battery connections to the ESC going just now, and programmed my ESC.

Still have to paint the canopy, however.

It looks like the heli is going to come out a bit tail heavy, even with my KoKam 2000 mah pack up front. I still need to figure out how to actually MOUNT the battery in the heli. I haven't installed the stock battery mount, as it looks to be designed for a 1200 -1300 mah nicad pack.

I chose to put the Align 430L/3550 motor in initially. This is my first time with the 430, having run a 400S and a 400DH in my T-Rexs.

Using a 20-tooth pinion from Robinson Racing and holding the heli in my hands in the basement, I believe I can say that this is going to be a pretty good combination of motor and pinion. I don't own a tach at this point, so I won't be able to give definitive head speeds -- but it the head speed on this machine with this combination definitely wil give my T-Rexes a run for the money.

I've also not tweaked the pitch in the MR system, that will come in the next day or two.

But -- the one thing that is IMMEDIATELY noticeable is that the MR blade tracking on the machine is dead nuts on, out of the box. It appears at this point that NONE of the fiddling around with damper mods, blade mods, control system mods or any of the other numerous things that the T-Rex folk have come to accept at common set up and build practice are going to be needed on this machine.

For the TR, I'm using a GY401 gyro running a JR Sport SM-8 sub micro servo. This servo appears to use the same mechanics as the Hitec HS50. Its specs are 6 grams, 7.0 oz. in. of torque when run at 4.8 volts, and a 60 degree transit time of 0.08 seconds at 4.8 volts. This little servo teamed up with the GY401 is fast. After some experimentation, I've got my gyro gains at about 20%. As I moved up toward 30%, I was getting some violent tail wag (heli held in my hand).

I'm thinking that the tail-wag that the T-Rex folk are seeing (and that I saw in the EP 400 this afternoon) is a combination of the speed of the HS50 servo, the gyro delay setting, and the gain of the gyro. I don't recall reading over in the T-Rex thread about people actually doing anything with the delay settings on the gyro. They seem to mess with gain only, servo arm lengths, tail-rotor blades (some claim stiffer blades help), freeing up the TR control rod guide (or removing it), belt tension, and some have resorted to black magic, all with spotty success.

Flight tests are still a bit off. As I stated, I still have to paint the canopy, install a toroid on my ESC - RX cable, and set the pitch and throttle curves. I should be able to post some dimensions -- rotor disc, tr disc, weights -- soon, and compare to my T-Rexs.

The other driving force that may delay flight testing is weather. It's a whopping 3 degrees F outside right now. We went in search of a live Christmas tree this afternoon, it was all of 10 degrees F. Too darn cold to fly a heli, that's for sure!

Will keep you posted.

Dave
12-18-2005 Over year old.
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dkshema
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Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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Four new pics posted in my gallery showing my first pass at radio installation. Still wondering where and how to mount a battery.

The clear unpainted canopy can also bee seen.

Dave
12-19-2005 Over year old.
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