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Computer Flight Simulators > Open Letter to RealFlight & Reflex Developers / Distributors
 
 
xagent
Senior Heliman
Location: Centreville, VA / MHA member

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Open Letter to RealFlight & Reflex Developers / Distributors

I am writing this open letter to publicly express my dissatisfaction with the current state of the above RC Simulator packages. As a new heli flyer, long time plank flying, and even longer time computer professional my fustration with RC Simulator software has reached a new high.

===

Real Flight

I've been using G2 for a few years and was looking forward to G3 (even with having to pay full price). As soon as the heli upgrade was available I purchased G3. On initial installation the software hung, and when I was lucky enough to actually get it to load fully it was pitifully slow. I read up on the forums, Real Flight web site, and called Real Flight support...everything confirmed what I pretty much already knew...time for a new computer. I excepted this expense, since I'd been needed to upgrade for awhile, and I certainly don't begrudge the developers for making use of the newest in video technology so this upgrade did not bother me much...my RC sim experience was going to be GREAT.

So I placed my order with Dell, and get a real speed demon...a top of the line Intel CPU at 3.6 gig, 2 gig of ram, and a blazing fast ATI Radeon X800 XL 256 meg video card...wow was I excited..G3 was going to rock on this machines.

I wait my two weeks and my machines arrives. I quickly install G3, start it up, and the machine locks up. I reboot and try it again...and again...and again...about the 10th time it finally loads. Well at least now that its running its looks great, some strange quirks with collisions and such, but hey this is a early version I can over look that for a while. I play for awhile and shut down. When I restartup the machine I experience the same problem, the loading it pitifully slow and actually startup without locking up the machine only occurs 1 out of 10 times. A call to the support line yields an interesting response, this guy tells me this is the symptom of not enough memory..EXCUSE ME...what do I need a 512 meg workstation card! He finally tells me their is a beta patch that might help.

Ok...I load up the beta patch...hey I'm willing to give it a try. Well the first time it load up beautifully, the progress bar zooms across the screen and soon I'm flying. Wow, I'm thrilled my troubles are over....well that what I thought. The next day I load up G3 a second time, and this time the progress bar stops at 80 out of 100. OH NO...back to were I started. I reboot and load up G3 again, and again, and again. Well at least its somewhat what better...now it wont load 7 out of 10 time....abit of an improvement from 9 out of 10. A another call to support...this time the answer is almost as good as the last time...the tech claims that the video card is SOMETIMES incompatible with G3.

Great Planes / Knife Edge - How about you;

1. Stop worrying about bells and whistles like flying rotor blades in a crash, and worry more about the crashing of your SOFTWARE!
2. Stop having your support tech staff taking us for fools.

===

Reflex

While I was waiting for G3 to come out with its Heli version, I decided to try out XTR. Everyone was raving about the graphics so I thought I give it a try.

I load it up and it looks beautiful. The frame rate was slow (this was still on the old machines) but I could understand that. Un-fortunately after about 5-10 minutes of flying the sound cuts out. About 10 seconds after the sound cuts out, the computer self reboots. It does this very consistently, so I send of an email to Reflex, but of course never get a response. I put reflect back on the shelf and go back to G2.

Well at this point I've gotten the new machine and G3 is pretty much useless, so I decide to give XTR a try again. I install the software and start it up...wow...it loads..at least that a big improvement over G3...I'm hopeful. I start the sim, with XTR in window mode, and what do I get...a frame rate of about 12...this with one of the hottest video cards made. Ok, let try full screen mode, well that better a frame rate of 60, I'm liking this. I fly for a few minutes and crash (I did say I was a heli beginner). I reset and take off again and right as the skid clear the grass the screen stops updating for about 4-5 seconds but internal to the software the heli is still flying...when the screen catches up with the software its already crashed. This happens in about 1/2 of take offs in full screen mode.

Reflex - How about you;

1. Provide some support for your software.

===

In summary it a darn good thing that it's almost spring so that I can get outside and fly for real, hopefully these vendor will get their acts together by next winter.

X

Someday, I might put a cute statement here.
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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miataguy
Veteran
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Wow, I have both as well, and didn't have anywhere near the kind of problems you're having. I just upgraded my hw as well (3.4 ghz, nvidia 6600gt, 1gb mem, new hd). I did experience the slow loading sometimes with g3, but restore defaults on the opening page seemed to fix the problem. I've been running for a couple of months with very few problems. I did not do the beta upgrade. Defrag also seems to help. What are your plans now? Perhaps you can swap out the video card and see what happens.

Official RunRyder Googlewhacker!
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I can't disagree more with what you said. While it is true that neither of these packages are 100% bug free, (XTR is bug free but not necessarily user friendly) I've got both of them running on the same machine, a machine that I built myself and both sofware packages run fast and sweet under Win 2K.

IMHO, you need someone to fix your PC's. If I had paid Dell to build a killer machine I would be getting some onsite service to fix them. I have a feeling that an NVidia Ge Force card will cure what ails it.

Trust me when I say that these sims haul a** on a 6800 Ge Force. It sounds like you have video problems. It's not fair to single out Reflex and Real Flight tech support for a hardware problem.

TM
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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xagent
Senior Heliman
Location: Centreville, VA / MHA member

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I purchased the video card locally, so I swapped it this weekend (for the same model), to see if the problem was video hardware related. No luck.

The machine also came with an X300 which exhibts the same problems (it also the same driver package).

I tried some game demo's that make use of DirectX 9 and they all work fine. XTR and G3 are the only apps giving me a problem, everything else works great (including G2).

X

Someday, I might put a cute statement here.
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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xagent
Senior Heliman
Location: Centreville, VA / MHA member

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		TMoore

If this was an hardware issued i would expect to see an manifest in other applications, in some test suite, or the burn in analysis package I ran.

A few pionts.

1. I did not go with an Nvidea chipset based card since both XTR and Realflight recommend Radeon cards.

2. XTR I can live with right now. As long as it is run in full screen mode, and extreme caution is used on take-off (so the heli is stable in position when the screen refreshes stop for a few seconds after the sim starts), then it very usable.

3. G3 in my opinion is simply NOT ready for prime time. I'm hopeful that a few patches will get the kinks out. When it actualy does make it fully through the load process it is awesome. Granted that the bug may not be in G3 (it could be the video driver or directX itself), Realflight needs to have some response other then you need faster hardware, more memory, or that dont support what ever video card it is you happen to have. If requirement is that the card support hardware accelarted directx 9 then any card that does that should work.

What my posting is trying to get accross is that for the price these applications fetch, we should all be expecting more quality and support then what we get.

X

Someday, I might put a cute statement here.
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		X,

I just can't agree with what you are saying. I started running RFG3 with a 5700LE with 128Mb and it wasn't the fastest but it ran steady and I could fly it with some of the graphics attributes turned to low or off. Like I said, RFG3 isn't perfect, there are physics issues but by the same token XTR's models are pretty lame out of the box. The last update got better and so far the support from XTR has been great because I haven't needed any. I had to really work on the XTR models to get them to the level that I wanted but I did it.

Your X800 card should run XTR in window mode at over 200FPS. Mine will run XTR at over 250FPS in window mode and RFG3 will run at 45 FPS with everything set to the highest levels. There is a huge difference in the design of the two programs and RFG3 is more like a 3D gamer world than XTR is.

There is something else wrong with your system.

TM
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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xagent
Senior Heliman
Location: Centreville, VA / MHA member

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		On XTR

In Windows Mode I get 7 FPS with V-Sync On or Off.
In Full Scren I get 60 with V-Sync On / 125+ with V-Sync Off.

On G3

Now I get an actual error when it tries to load (this is with the public beta version)

Error: E_OUTOFMEMORY
File: .\DXBuffer.cpp
Line: 429

Then in the rare instances is does actualy make it through the load process, after crashing (due to my flying) I get the following;

1. crash
2. hit reset on controller
3. heli moves back to reset piont
4. sound of crash continues to cycle again and again and heli will not fly.

Hopefully vitek can look into these G3 errors (since it seems the support line at Great Planes does not seem to have any intrest in resolving anything). To me these issues do not have the characteristics of a hardware issue.

X

Someday, I might put a cute statement here.
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		X,

What sound card do you have?

TM
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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xagent
Senior Heliman
Location: Centreville, VA / MHA member

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Mobo integrated.

Sound card - 5.1 channel surround using the integrated ADI 198x Chipset. Using SoundMax Drivers.

Used as the integrated sound on a number of different manufactors boards including ASUS.

Have come accross another intresting issue. G3 will load successfully IF the reset to default is selected on the launcher, even if no setting where changed the last time it was run (other then switch from the default fixxed wing to one of the included heli's).


X

Someday, I might put a cute statement here.
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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kaptkaos
Key Veteran
Location: Miami FL

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		ATI cards will always give unexpected results with some piece of hardware on your PC. Just do a search. I cant tell you how many times I wish I would have stuck with NVidia, but a few years ago everyone was harping that GForce was dead, and ATI was the new king, so I reluctantly bought a 9700 Pro for $100, a great deal, and a great performing card indeed, but almost 30% of non-gaming related software has known issues with ATI cards.

Go back to the GForce, run the Detonator drivers.

If you give a Chimp a gun, and the Chimp shoots, DONT BLAME THE CHIMP!!!!
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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xagent
Senior Heliman
Location: Centreville, VA / MHA member

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I've been running the X800 for about two weeks, and other then these issues it has worked great.

Note that the X800 is a PCI Express x16 card. I'm wondering if anyone else is using PCI Express based cards?

X

Someday, I might put a cute statement here.
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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dshepard
Senior Heliman
Location: Concord, NC - USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		XTR

On XTR after a heli crash (not PC crash) hold your throttle around 1/4 stick. I don't know why this works but it does, someone else told me this tip.

For what it is worth I have XTR and have had zero problems. I have a new Dell 3.4Ghz with a GeForce 6800.

I also have G2 (not G3) and there is no comparison between the two.
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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Pete Niotis
Senior Heliman
Location: Grand Haven MI, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		xagent...

I have a ATI Radeon X700 PCI-Express card, it works well for me but I will be getting a X800 or X850 soon just because I'm silly like that.

I have used Asus Mother Boards for the last 6-7 years and I never use the integrated audio on those boards. I've had issues with the integrated sound and always install a CreativeLabs card and simply disable the integrated sound card.

I have never received an error like yours, could you just try installing some old soundblaster type card to see if it resolves it?
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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kaptkaos
Key Veteran
Location: Miami FL

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I use an ASUS with onboard NVidia SoundStorm Audio and love it. Works great.

I dont have any issues with G3 at all, even with my ATI, RFG2, however.....

No need to hold 1/4 stick or fandangle with it at all.

If you give a Chimp a gun, and the Chimp shoots, DONT BLAME THE CHIMP!!!!
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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rstacy
Key Veteran
Location: Rochester, NY

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
G3 in my opinion is simply NOT ready for prime time


X,
You are not alone. I couldn't agree more.
You forgot to mention that G3 is a tremendous CPU hog.
G3 was pushed out early probably in attempt to hold market share.
I have experienced all of the problems that you mentioned.
Not only did it not work so well for me but it needs to be more friendly with various types of hardware.
I have noticed that the instability of the software is aggravated by the editing of models.
I finally un-installed G3 and will wait for a revision.

Reflex isn't everything but it is OK for a lot of good reasons.

G2 was the most solid but needed some work on the algorithms.

I am very happy for Terry and Pete. I respect both of them and if G3 is working well, great!

As you said, it isn't ready for prime time.

Ray
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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RCHeliJim
Elite Veteran
Location: Orem, UT USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		The software is fine, its definiteley a hardware conflict somewhere. I have what would be considered a "slower" machine for running either of these sims, and they both work flawlessly - every time.

I have a MSI motherboard, P4 2.6 Ghz processor, 512 mb Ram, and an "old" GeForce 5200 128mb video card. I also ALWAYS disable internal sound chips and install a Creative 5.1 Card. I have had and seen countless conflicts with software in the past due to built in audio setups.

Not saying anybody here is doing anything wrong, but perhaps you should check other options out before you tell the software designers that their software is flawed. Disable that internal audio and stick in a GeForce card, just to try it out.

These things happen with ALL process intensive software. If software makers tested every possible hardware configuration, we would never see a final product

I developed software and hardware packages in my previous line of work, and let me tell you - there are infinite configurations. You have to aim for the base of the target group, without compromising too much performance.



Go Fly, Have Fun!!
-Team Quick UK
-Team RCHeliMag
03-01-2005 Over year old.
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flyoz
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		oneinnesja Im with you I have what I thought was a good machine but copared to the guys above its a dog. I just installed a generic 128M Video card and XTR plugs away just fine in Windows XP SP2 (by the way)
I have found Xtr a bit fractious even after the video card and driver upgrades. It just wouldnt allow me to use my JR2610 (6102)

New Fly species - Helicoptera.
03-16-2005 Over year old.
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flyoz
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		oneinnesja Im with you I have what I thought was a good machine but copared to the guys above its a dog. I just installed a generic 128M Video card and XTR plugs away just fine in Windows XP SP2 (by the way)
I have found Xtr a bit fractious even after the video card and driver upgrades. It just wouldnt allow me to use my JR2610 (6102) in my normal setup -I had to assign another model for it. Then I tried the 5.6Kohm reister fix and that seems to have done the trick.

I can understand peoples frustration though You should be able to buy install and run. Not become a defacto Lab software technician
The main web sites need a ton of work in the support area.

New Fly species - Helicoptera.
03-16-2005 Over year old.
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shlm
Key Veteran
Location: West Chester, PA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Wow, I am surprised to hear all of these issues as I have been running G3 (non-patched) on my Dell laptop with no problems.

It is a middle of the road laptop with a Pentium M 1600MHz, 512 meg ram, 32 meg video ram.

I did have to tweak G3 to get a good frame rate.
03-16-2005 Over year old.
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dCypher
Senior Heliman
Location: Dallas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Sounds to me like you need to:

a) reinstall the latest version if directX (NOT the one that comes on the G3/XTR CD) from here.

and

b) reinstall the latest ATI video drivers from here.

Almost never, NEVER use the drivers that come on any peice of hardawares CD. They are genrally utter crap and significantly outdated.

Lastly, update your motherboards bios. The preinstalled BIOS is quite often out-of-date from day 1 on most new boards, so head over to Asus, Dell, or Abit, or whatever you've got and double check you have the LATEST BIOS. Bios fixes can make a TON of difference in hardware issues.
03-16-2005 Over year old.
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Computer Flight Simulators > Open Letter to RealFlight & Reflex Developers / Distributors
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