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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > 9303-eCCPM-Channel 6 Behind/Lagging - Confirmed
 
 
TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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The radio has been updated in the last 10 years. That's why there has been 3 different iterations of heli, acro and glider cards in that time. It took a long time for every other radio mfg., to catch up to the capabilities of this one and when they did ATX just programmed a new card.

I don't see what is wrong with the display, it may not be fancy but fancy don't fly helis. ATX had the Infinity 1000 that no one wanted to buy because of the expense and it had a beautiful display with 11 point pitch, throttle and rudder curves with any form of CCPM mixing known to man. It wasn't a huge success and it was expensive to build.





In 1991 the I1000 had a fully programmable scanner, Fully synthesized 1024 PCM system with channel priority assignability that was twice as fast as JR's fastest TX. I can still fly digitals on the 1024 or 512 system and it doesn't do too badly.

TM
04-07-2005 Over year old.
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JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

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> Well I thought it had the same channel assignment as JR from
> looking in the manual.

It does have similar channel assignments. Channels 2, 3, and 6 are used for the swash controls. There is a big difference, however, in how the control pulses go out. The pulses go out in pairs such that channels 1 and 5 go out at the same time, channels 2 and 6, channels 3 and 7, and then channels 4 and 8.

As you can see, two of the channels (2 and 6) for the swash go out at the same time. That is immediately followed by the other swash channel, channel 3. That is why it has never had problems with eCCPM setups.

Also of note is that Stylus has a bunch of tweakable parameters specifically for eCCPM use. For example, you can slow down two of the servos when elevator inputs are given to eliminate any collective bump upon fast elevator inputs. If, for some reason, one servo is slower than the other two, you can adjust the servo speeds. It has linearity adjustments to maintain equal cyclic inputs at all collective levels. It also has adjustments separate from the servo end point adjustments for swash plate leveling at top and bottom collective.

- John
04-07-2005 Over year old.
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Tim B
Senior Heliman
Location: Pasco, Washington

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Been on this indicisive radio quest for awhile now.
In january I was looking at cheaping out with a Hitec or 7c and only vaguely considering the 9c and 9303. I was pretty well settled on the Hitec.

Febuary I ditched the Hitec and 7c notion and started comparing the 9c and 9303 and had decided on the 9303 which I was going to purchase come march.

March came and I was all set to buy the 9303 but had to use part of that money on a new engine instead so I could keep flying. Now the Stylus comes into the picture for me.

Here it is april and it's the Stylus vs the 9303. Stylus is pulling ahead but I'm not quite in the checkout line with it yet. Also having trouble finding stores that carry the Stylus, any recommendations?
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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ATX is the only source for the Stylus. Call Brian or Bobby at ATX and they will take care of you. It's a top of the line radio without the top of the line price.

TM
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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noahb
Senior Heliman
Location: Carlasbad, NM

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nesil

North east saiplane products has them as well. Not sure how good the prices are.


http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=772
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Forgot those guys didn't I?

TM
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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Tim B
Senior Heliman
Location: Pasco, Washington

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Thanks guys.
Heliproz has them on thier website, but has shown out of stock for some time, I haven't called them to see if they still deal em though.
Looks like NSP has decent prices from what few I've found to compare with.
If you think of others, let me know?
JRs are everywhere.
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

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Also check:
http://store.yahoo.com/internet-rc/aistfmsefora.html
http://www.markshobby.com/main.htm (not listed, but he does have them and flies one himself)

- John
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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Keithf
Heliman
Location: Sydney

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Lagging

I noticed this problem with a JR PCM 10 a while back, and found the problem was lack of processor speed in the Tx.

I was using multiple mixes on a 4 servo wing, and was needing to mix one channel to another to another to get the desired result. It seems that the Tx can calculate the mix effect from one channel to another easily, but when it has to cascade the calculation several times to other channels (forget whether I was using 3 or 4 sequential mixes) , you get a noticable delay in servo response. Its the servos further down the "food chain" that get delayed. There was also some overshoot effect with rapid stick movements. Servos on channels with only 1 or 2 levels of mixing had no appreciable delay.

I ended up reconfiguring the mixes such that only 2 levels of mixing were needed (albeit needing more discreet mixes to achieve the same end result) and the problem was gone.

So, maybe try programming the CCPM mix using discreet mixes rather that the pre-set mix, and see if the problem goes. I suspect it will.
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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JKos
Elite Veteran
Location: City of California in the state of Maryland

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Keith,
I tried exactly what you mention, doing the eCCPM mixing with the programmable mixes on the 9303. It takes five mixes to do it. It did not change the behaviour of the swash.

- John
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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blade3d
Elite Veteran
Location: New Jersey USA

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So is it recommended not to buy the 9303 then ???

Blade
Rupert
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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Tim B
Senior Heliman
Location: Pasco, Washington

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I wouldn't say that. The 9303 is still a very nice radio in my worthless opinion. I still haven't totally ruled it out myself.

Choosing a radio will always be an issue of personal preference. We choose the one we think best suits us, our needs, and our budget.

Thanks to JKos bringing the issue and points discussed in this thread to our attention, we have more to add to our list of things to consider when making that decision. We're better informed.

It's like buying shoes. Size? Comfort? Price? Appealing? Appropriate? Durable? Flawed? Sweat factory? All your buddies are wearing 'em?
They're going on your feet.
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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blade3d
Elite Veteran
Location: New Jersey USA

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If the swash is not moving level and eccpm seems top be the way of heli's these day I find that feature very important for a radio,, I was about to buy the 9303,,but now am going to hold off.

Blade3d
Rupert
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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Tim B
Senior Heliman
Location: Pasco, Washington

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True. But as mentioned, the 9303 can still be adaquit and perform decently with the right servos and power configuration.

But yeah, I'm still leaned toward the stylus myself. Now if that 9303 would just quit sparkling in the corner of my eye, I'd be settled. Like I was last month.
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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noahb
Senior Heliman
Location: Carlasbad, NM

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9303

Well, I like my 9303. Also, if enough people complained to Horizon, they might be able to get JR to do some fancy programming and then maybe the radios could be updated (pain in the rear...I know). Maybe worth a try.

However, it was stated that a good power source and fast servos would help the problem where say it may not be noticable.

The stylus is a great radio and can do alot for the price, but I like my 9303 and I would hate to buy a stylus and then 4 months from now, airtronics releases a new radio.

This is the reason I sold my 10X. I am sure JR will follow futaba and release a new radio within a year...if so, the market value of 10X's will drop.

Just my penny's worth...and I get change back!
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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Andi G
Veteran
Location: Switzerland

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Keith,

was this a 10X heli radio? Reason I asked is that some European F3c pilots switched from the 9Z to the 10X because of the better ccpm...

Regards,
Andi
04-08-2005 Over year old.
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Keithf
Heliman
Location: Sydney

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Andi,

No, this was a JR PCM10 (aero) ,1990 or 1991 vintage. Definitely not the 10X (heli).

Keith
04-12-2005 Over year old.
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GBR2
Senior Heliman
Location: Snohomish, WA USA

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This entire thread is enlightening but it would have been nice if someone with the problem had actually gotten Horizon's position on this issue. They might not know that it even exists. Can't correct anything if you don't know about it.

I see that Horizon can update the 9303 to use Z-PCM equipment, where originally it was abandoned. So it might be possible to also do something about the lag "problem" but not if they don't know about it.
04-15-2005 Over year old.
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asammons
rrAdvertiser
Location: Home of the Alamo, San Antonio, TX

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I have noticed the same problem with my 9303 and 8311's...but the way I fly, I did not see any difference. Also, I will be swapping the battery from the stock 1100 to 4200 mah dual battery and see how it works out.
04-22-2005 Over year old.
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vtolnut
Heliman
Location: USA

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JKos
I think you are on the right track on two of these your ideas. I believe the problem is likely on both ends. The tx is reading the pots in a sequential manner (likely and A/D converter and a multiplexer to save costs). There is a finite amount of time required to calculate the pulse widths required for each servo. Even if the algorithm updates the servo positions in the TX data stream simultaneously, as you have stated and I have measured independantly (actually 5 years ago) the generation of the servo command pulses are interleaved on the RX and not sent simultaneously ( Disclaimer I have not scoped a 5019 DPS 14 rx yet so I cannot say that it conforms to this).
This means even if you had "Ideal" servos that were match to .000001 percent variance in specs they would still not begin moving at the same time with current technology except with one cheat. If you calculate the latency on the RX side and the algorithm execution speed is fast enough you could update the "slow" channel first and then after a couple of iterations update the "fast" ones. by fast(early update) and slow I mean based of firing order of the RX. Since it is and order like 1,5 .. 2,6 .. 3,7 .. 4,8 ..(varies by mfgr.) and is fixed this is possible provided that the Microprocessor in the TX can run the code fast enough that multiple iterations can occur in the time between sending the encoded frame to the RX.

If you scope the bus voltage of your reciever a 10 microsec or less sampling you will likely see a significant difference between the behavior of the voltage when all servos are moving when you compare V. reg vs. battery power. Also you will be surprised at the marked difference in the variance in battery voltage during servo sweeps on a full charge battery and one that is 50% charged.

If you want a real treat do this test with JR Futaba and airtronics equipment (different tx update rates, different interleave of servo pulse). from our research ATX had clearly the best CCPM (especially 120 degree). The 14MZ has closed the gap and may be slightly better (still testing). I know that the 14MZ is touted to be the only one that you can mix out all of the interaction, but on a machine with a good CCPM implementation we were always able to get purer swashplate motion on the ATX equipement before the 14 came out.

One RX that I have seen actually sequentially sends the command pulses out for each servo (not a great thing for CCPM) in a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 manner. Not one of the big 3 though.
04-22-2005 Over year old.
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Radio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt > 9303-eCCPM-Channel 6 Behind/Lagging - Confirmed
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