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Scale Model RC Helicopters > 4 Blade flutter
 
 
peter milgate
Heliman
Location: Midlands.U.K.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
What is the principle cause of flutter.Just had it occur on a 4 blade head I am trying to set up.Controlling the pitch with the control arm on the front of the blade holder,should I use a rearward position? I figure there is not enough authority over the blade,with all the weight very forward in the chord of the blade.
06-17-2002 Over year old.
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Doug
Elite Veteran
Location: Naples Florida....

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What head? What blades?

The subject is very complex. And involves the lead lag damping as well as the center of pressure and it's relation to the center of gyration of the blades. Additionally the delta feedback in the head is a major factor. If you stick with proven combinations you should have no problems otherwise you are doing a science fair project.
06-18-2002 Over year old.
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sykochin
Senior Heliman
Location: GoWest

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Peter;
It could be the head speed is too fast. Remember you have four blades now, the distance from each to another is closer. So when your head speed is too fast, the turbulence plays a major role in the coming blades.
Slow down the head speed is the key. This is always happening in multi bladed head.
06-18-2002 Over year old.
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twguns
Senior Heliman
Location: Indianapolis, IN

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
The strength of your servos and linkage also comes into play here...

You can't just "switch" the control arms from front to back without changing other things, like the swash will have to move down to give positive pitch...

what servos are you running???

bigTim
06-18-2002 Over year old.
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peter milgate
Heliman
Location: Midlands.U.K.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Hello eveyone,
Its a century head with a set of woodies(again century)
Running at 1350 rpm,using a governor.
I realise I would hve to change the swashplate operation,and pitch settings.Just wondered if anyone else had set one up.This was on an XL carbon,Os61sxWC.Servos are 9202's all round(pitch and cyclic,so I don't expect it to be those being pushed back and not holding position.Everything was meticulously balanced(I glassed the blades aswell !) and tracked true.ran nice and smooth on spooling up.
06-18-2002 Over year old.
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twguns
Senior Heliman
Location: Indianapolis, IN

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Peter, Sounds like you have all the right stuff and settings... I am curious about the blades... Are these blades that Century offer expressly for the 4 blade head or are they just 2 bladed sets for a regular flybar head??? If they are not made for the 4 blade head, you might have the problem found... I wasn't aware that Century (or anybody for that matter) was offering wood blades for a multi setup...

The problem is that multi blade heads, like flybarless heads, require weighted blades... The difference is that the weight has to be more at the outer end to give the stability and inertia needed in the head without the flybar...

The chord on the woodies is probably to great as well... Not sure about the actual ratio for your size blades, but they should be narrower chorded on a multi head...

bigTim
06-18-2002 Over year old.
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hoh
Heliman
Location: Viva Las Vegas

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peter milgate
That's a good head. I have one on my Century Balckhawk.
I use Century 660 Fibreglass semi sym. My mechanic is XL 60. Old OS 61SF. Flies beautifully. Make sure head speed not over 1500rpm, otherwise flutters.
06-19-2002 Over year old.
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Scalemaster
Heliman
Location: Woodbridge, Va

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The wooden blades from Century are weighted blades, there is a lead strip down the leading edge of the blade, covered in resin. These are the same blades I am flying on the 5 bladed head.

Mike
06-20-2002 Over year old.
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peter milgate
Heliman
Location: Midlands.U.K.

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The blades were bought as a set of four (expressly for this head)
They have three lead strips in the leading edge.
06-20-2002 Over year old.
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cubeleo
Heliman
Location: San Jose, CA

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Delta Feedback

Hello,

I'm very interested in helicopter physics. Could someone explain delta feedback? Is it a mechanical arrangement whereby the blades will be pitched in response to a flapping motion? On my Ergo, I've noticed that the ball links for the blade grips are mounted off-center, so that a flapping motion up would actually cause the blades to pitch UP! This seems like it would create a tendancy to diverge from 0 pitch. All comments and thoughts appreciated!

-Aaron Dwyer
07-23-2002 Over year old.
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The_Dave
Veteran
Location: Las Vegas / Pahrump, Nevada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Delta Feedback

The Delta angle is a complex issue but it should have no role here. The multi blade head should be taking it's input stright on the 90's so there would be no delta angle involved.

Futhermore, I have run my four blade head at speeds in excess of 1500 rpm's with no problems whatsoever. I suspect you have a bad set of blades or excessive slop in your system.

As you can see when it is right it will fly!



Mark McAlpine - 2005 - We will never forget.
07-23-2002 Over year old.
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oldfart
Elite Veteran
Location: Vancouver, Canada

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Flutter

1)The more dynamically stable the blades are (the less leading they have)the less power is required from the control system to stabalize them. Consequently the less precise and powerful the control system will have to be to evade flutter.

An easy way to check how much they do lead (I do not know of any woody 60 size blades under 250 grams that do not lead, as it would take that much lead in the leading edge to get their chordwise center of gravity far enough forward) is to hang each blade from their blade bolt hole off the side of your workbench, using a 3mm or so pivot. Then hang a plumb bob behind them along the trailing edge. This will indicate the amount of "lead". the less the better.

Surprisingly, I found that there are some composite blade brands that are relatively inexpensive that are extremely good here and some expensive brands that are not very good at all. So test them, don't rely on cost and brand name.

2) Check the control system and minimize all slop, or as much as possible.

3) Check the bearing in the lower star of your swashplate. I had flutter happen on a standard X-Cell that was traced to this bearing. Under normal inspection it seemed secure, but with presure applied to the blade in pitch, I found I could get it to move up and down in its seat. Readjustment of the retaining allen screws solved the problem. NOTE: The more unstable a blade is dynamically, the more they work the system. Consequently the quicker they will work such things as these bearings loose and wear other components.
07-24-2002 Over year old.
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gary saia
Heliman
Location: burleson. tx

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solution for 4-blade flying

Hey Guy, You can put a new Vario 4-blade head on any pod and boom mechanics you have to redrill the main shaft, The head needs to be rigid and fibergass blades do your damping. Wood blades are to rigid. I flew the old schluter 4 blade with pico blades in the old days, but we had stiffen up the head and make it rigid, I put a Vario on a guy's x-cell and even flew it with Vario's multi-blade gyro. I work and flew great. If i can help e-mail me and I will help as much as I can. Gary Saia, Vario rep and flyier
08-17-2002 Over year old.
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Scale Model RC Helicopters > 4 Blade flutter
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