Topic Subscribe
WATCH  1 page15320 viewsPOST REPLY
Ron's RC Helicopters . Thunder Power RC . Mikado
. .

Autogyros - Gyrocopters

 >

human powered auto gyro--- redbull flugtag

aaronredbaron

Senior Heliman

Champaign, IL, USA

at the redbull flugtag event in portland (1st annual event attracted 30,000 people) a few weeks ago I noticed that all entries suffered from the same problem, there is no way to get moving more than 7-10mph before you drop off the ramp. with all of the serious designs being fixed wing none could have acheived flying speed before falling into the river. so I started thinking...if the launch team put their energy into spinning the rotor as they push the contraption towards its watery fate, one might have a chance at producing enough thrust from a human powered propeller to get enough drag (lift) to actually fly.

rules-entirely human powered with no energy retention devices or helium, etc.

goal- to fly as far as possible after being pushed off a 30 foot long ramp 30 feet up

the record holder for flugtag used a hang glider and managed to drop down right to the water and get enough energy to glide 160 feet.

any ideas????

08-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
AustinTatious

Heliman

Hurst, Texas

autogyros

Gyrocopters need good power to weight ratios. I doubt that a human powered Gyro would do much more than auto downwards. Humans cant even produce 1 horsepower. That dosent swing a very large prop.

NO energy retention devices? no FLywheels allowed?

Austin Williams

08-17-2004 Over year old.
aaronredbaron

Senior Heliman

Champaign, IL, USA

here is the link if anyone is still interested. I know you can't used rubber bands or bungies, but I dunno about flywheels
http://www.redbullflugtagportland.com/rules.php

two kids? how'd that happen? time to zip'm up!!!

08-25-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
ARRietz

Heliman

Dayton, OH

This has been studied for a while by a few different universities (here at Purdue was one) And it was determined that a human powered helicopter is mathematically improbable. (not necessarily imposible) A person doesn't have enough power output to weight in order to generate lift and carry him/her self and the necesary control surfaces, structure, etc. The most power efficent person you could find, like say lance armstrong, would still have to have a human powered heli that weighed next to nothing. An autogyro would be do-able, but would only be a controlled drop and never gain height.

Mumbo, perhaps... Jumbo, perhaps not!

08-27-2004 Over year old.
AustinTatious

Heliman

Hurst, Texas

see, what I wonder is i fyou had really lightweight blades that were REALLY long....THey would move slow, but they woudl go so fast at the tips....

A speed 300 will lift quite a bit if you gear it right and swing a big prop.. I know us humans have poor" power to weight" so to speak.. But You would think it is possible. They made a human powered Hydroplane that could go around 20-30 mph on the water.. thats DAMN fast on water!

Austin Williams

08-27-2004 Over year old.
ARRietz

Heliman

Dayton, OH

The problem is that even if all you were powering were the weight of the person and the very light blades, you still would have a very hard time producing enough lift. That is, unless you were able to build it out of unobtainium. That stuff is infinitely strong and weighs nothing. I should see if i can find a report on human powered helis, it had a complete math breakdown. That was 5 years ago though, and reports on unsuccessful projects tend to go away quickly...

Mumbo, perhaps... Jumbo, perhaps not!

08-27-2004 Over year old.
Fullagas

Key Veteran

Michigan

.
Someone recently posted a link to a human-powered heli. IIRC, it did have very long, fragile blades. There was a vid. It didn't aviate.

.

Flying helis since gyros had springs.

08-27-2004 Over year old.
BnE_Autogyro

Heliman

Surfside Beach, SC

inflateable blades

I think this is a posibility with larger slower blades
of greater number than 4, but less than 10. Two rotors
are better than one. My idea uses two arches to support
the rotor heads. The arcs shaped as airfoils become frame
and lifting and control surfaces at higher speed. This
eliminates weight of keel & mast. The pedal drive is
linked to the props by flexshaft. The props are indiviually
directed by handel bars for thrust vectoring. If small
parafoil blades use an inexpensive design I can have a
test bed for a reconfigurable PC based integrated flight
control system and personal flight commuting could become
a reality.

02-17-2006 Over year old.
BnE_Autogyro

Heliman

Surfside Beach, SC

this year's events are 4/29 & 10/21

Anybody interested? could start 4/1 to fly in Baltimore.

Human means human (lo_tek).

no Springs, Solar, Vibration to energy rotor blades
with linear induction hubs and
reasonant AC drives.

I have a vision & need money to build & see it fly now.

Any takers? boB

02-17-2006 Over year old.
chaznc28607

Heliman

Boone NC USA

Wind cups on the rotors?

Course recommend a windy day also, wind cups on the rotor blades would get the rotors moving.

03-17-2006 Over year old.
BnE_Autogyro

Heliman

Surfside Beach, SC

no cups. no wind, just variable shape blades

The blade spinup is while the blade is flat, hard & the parafoil inlets are closed. JTO uses overspeed energy and only changes the shape of the lifting surface by opening the leading edge inlets. The drive transmision will always need slight power to the top rotors so in normal flight the leading edge inlets can be kept closed to reduce rotor drag.
Any quick need for lift can be obtained from tilting both heads, accepting a slight drop in speed (& RRPM), or the CoG (seat, pedals, props & drive) aft of center.
Hover may not be an obtainable feature of any autogyro, but jump take off and very slow flying is what I designed around.
To date a birotor autogyro with blended wind & body has not been proposed or simulated for flight characteristics.
My idea to flight is what I need to add instruments, provide proof of concept & use as a testbed for a unique reconfigurable fly by wire control computer based on hardened PCs.

03-18-2006 Over year old.
petthekittyz

Heliman

redding ca

tons of props???

the number of blades doesnt matter, the lenght doesnt matter, as mush.. the only resistance is going to be the actual downforce being created by spinning the top blades, what your going to want to do is have a very efficent way to drive the top blades. im going to say the heavier the blades the better, you might think im nuts but let me explain my reasons.
you start powering the blades with them flat, no down force at all. get the speed up as much as you can, the more weight the more momentum, the more stored energy.... think of it like a fly wheel, kinda... if you have time to get it going before they push you down the ramp things would be great. once they are as fast as you can get them just leave them free spinning, change over to start powering a smaller rear prop, probably 3 small blades. your dropping down the ramp, right before you hit the bottom you pull some sort of release, havent figured out the mechanis yet, that releases the top blades from there flat spin to an aggressive amount of downforce, maybe spring loaded with release pins? sure why not? that would give the contraption tons of lift, once its lifting, keep the top prop pretty flat, or even lean it forward a little to add to the forward movement of the contraption, well with that small amount of power being generated by the person at that time you could probably just leave human power to the top blades without TOO mush fear of the whole machine spinning like a helicopter without a tail prop, lol. if these problems arise upon testing just dont use power on the top when it is in the air, it can spin as fast as it wants without causing any difficutys durring flight as long as there is no power being applied durring flight. the only thing im worried about is the drive mechanism, when were only talking about maybe 1hp from a human, we need a very smooth means of transfering the power with minimal power loss.... hydraulic pump and motor? or flexshaft??? i dont really like flex shafts.... this thing could go pretty far, maybe. and the cool thing is as long as the top blades are spinning they act as a giant wing as well. maybe have the top blades set in a 3 position thing, 1st setting flat for speeding it up, 2nd setting: aggressing downforce for lift, 3rd setting would be backwards, almost as if it was pushing the contraption down, but only go to that setting once the lift is gone. the blade change over so the falling motion on the machine actually starts to power the blades and you lean the whole upper blade assimbily back to maybe 20 degrees, which would inreturn give more lift if you were powering the rear props.

11-06-2006 Over year old.
chaznc28607

Heliman

Boone NC USA

What about orthopter thrust, with an auto gyro.

Are light weight flapping wings on the back of the auto gyro for thrust to get it up to speed allowed?
Orthopter style, last year seen the orthopter plane get up to 55 mph flapping its wings. Heard it crashed, but that design isn't trying to hover is it?

Could it work on a smaller scale for an auto gyro.
Could still be against the rules, but this is all to prove human power can get you off the ground anyway.

01-19-2007 Over year old.
BnE_Autogyro

Heliman

Surfside Beach, SC

Not flapping - shape changing & feathering for reduced drag

Autogyro's all have flapping due to laed/lag in rotational plane, but it add to vibrational byproducts that have given the name autogiro better description. In changing shape to parafoil blades in different phases of roataion at fairly low speeds (RRPM under 40) less drag will allow more power to be used on the pedal powered pusher props. The props are thrust vectored by the handlebars and geared similar to a bicycle.
Think anyone will ever be willing to build. I asked Billy Gates since he funded Eclipse air but he turned me down. Emailed him at

billg@microsoft.com

even got an answer, but it wasn't a good one . Ya think he could have thrown me a bone for a couple hundred grand & one would be flying by Oshkosh. Then I could redirect my time to the electronic AFCS so anyone could fly it.

01-22-2007 Over year old.
BnE_Autogyro

Heliman

Surfside Beach, SC

This year Flugtag - Anybody want to build?

This topic had a lot of people reading, but there still is no build interest. There are some really different ideas in this design including reshaping the Parafoil from spinup to full inflation. The Blended Wing & Body in a Bi-Rotor layout is something I have searched for all over the place & haven't found any others close. I do want to see one built & want to target 800' since this old fat guy doesn't want to go in the water right away. Target airspeed 15kts with a 220# load & 75# gyro. I'm pretty good on a bike I might have a 1/2hp in a sprint. The seat & harness start in a more upright position. A good clutch and multiple transmision gearing for top, wheels, props and being able to switch them. Weight on wheels will automatically turn that drive off & all on props. The CG goes aft as transition leans archs forward & tilts hubs back slightly. The pedals come up & go aft so I will be inclined more leaning on the harness attached to the top arch & pulling hub tilt foward to feather for level flight & keep RRPM up. Then bring the arches to best lift angle (2-5deg?) using the split canard, Vtail & Rudleons (small flaps below the hubs on the trailing edge of the lower arch). These control surfaces and the thrust vectoring of the 2 pusher props below & behind the lower arch will aid control from seat twist, shoulder lean, split handelbar.
These added controls should allow all the lower body energy to maintain foward motion. If I need to feather the props due to higher airspeed causing drag, the weight for extra hardware isn't in the 75# limit I had set and there will be some redesign required and need to keep it near CG. Maybe when I am completely reclined foward the pedals completely back, tail together & tight, canard small tapered swept back. At this speed (28-35kts) the leading edge of the parafoils need to be small & the blades flat & as stiff as possible. Inflateable spar is the way I'd like to solve this. I only have a problem with the material requirement ,,, must be made of environmentally friendly materials & that's not Kevlar, Tyvek & a few other I need for light weight parts.
The rules people will either approve or trash my parts selection.

I don't want the prize, just to see one built to fly.
When it's done I'd like to take the frame it to a real wind tunnel with some small motors to see if it could support jump take off * vertical land. I just think BWB with Birotor Parafoils would be the cheapest way to wind surf.

Anybody want to hire a Flugtagist?

It's just the 1st one isn't going to be cheap. The 10,000th one could have fully automated light weight flight control and intranet FP addmendment (in-flight) w/ATC local on a couple PDAs w/GPS & FRS/UHF packet radios (cell phone backup)
Then there's AC resonant drive based on vibration to energy conversion on both the blades & the A/F and linear induction rotor hubs, solar panels on the blades?.
Come on let's get wild it's the dream design, just move off the keel & mast single rotor pusher gyro platform. Sure it's tried & it is easy, but it's loaded (sorry disk pun) with drag & needs a ton of HP to move it thru the air (didn't someone say you could fly a brick with enough thrust?)

03-13-2008 Over year old.
BnE_Autogyro

Heliman

Surfside Beach, SC

AutoGyro of new design fund

To create two Kevlar arches and twelve Tyvek parafoils resources above my own are required. I know the whole airframe and inflateable parafoils will need to max at 72lbs. for 7'x10"x3" blade size and 220lb pilot. I have changed the drive to compressed air since the parafoils have inflateable spars & air berring rotor hubs S/B lighter weight than metals or cermaic. The 'How to write a business plan' hasn't started any stampeed to my inbox or IPO offer. If someone has an itch to build a completely different kind of model to prove this idea would never fly please email me kaehlerbob@gmail.com. If my rich partner (that would be YOU) reads this we can fly this summer! Tools for this job include an ultrasonic welder and lots of fiberglass to make forms. I do not see any unique aircraft designs especially for general avaiation, especially ultralight personnel JTOL.

04-15-2009 Over year old.
chaznc28607

Heliman

Boone NC USA

Found a Russian that kinda had some what of a good idea.

Check this guy out, it was towed by a car, but taking into account the guy was at a runnable speed, and the frame was light weight.
Something could be made of it, imagine it the size of a skateboard, or surf board?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JrT8bKQB0A

07-27-2009 Over year old.
chaznc28607

Heliman

Boone NC USA

A hang glider autogyro, as the Russian made in this link??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JrT8bKQB0A

Wonders how much human powered leg strength it would take to turn a cross flow fan? Or cross flow turbine, less torque to contend with then a prop. Maybe something narrow to cup the air in, blow it out behind it.
As in this video of a airplane design made from it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uscW9RLcBpw

Just need someone to go to Walmart buy a cross flow fan in the fan department, dismantle it, put the fan on a bike.

07-27-2009 Over year old.
WATCH  1 page15320 viewsPOST REPLY
Futaba-RC . HeliProz . Boca Bearings
. .

Autogyros - Gyrocopters

 >

human powered auto gyro--- redbull flugtag

 Print TOPIC Advertisers 

Topic Subscribe

Friday, August 22 - 12:47 pm - Copyright © 2000-2014 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies