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Main Discussion > GY401 & JR8700 Help!
 
 
plantone
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Location: Rotorua New Zealand

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HI

Has anyone come across any problems using the 8700 servo with a 401 gyro??
Let me explain, Went flying today with a friend, he is using this setup for the first time today so i set it up for him all was going fine until we switch it off & then back on again when we noticed on the initiation time the servo would travel till it reached it end point & jam momentarily before returning to centre, it always travels to the same side & is started up in HH as per instructions, it flies great. But this cant be doing the servo much good??
My Hirobo with a 401 & 9253 servo does nt this.

Wayne
08-08-2004 Over year old.
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swale
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

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never used a 401 but the 8700g must only be used with a PCM setup!

Sceadu EVO 50
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Drunk Monk
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Location: Preston, UK

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I "believe" that the 8700G isn't supposed to be used with a 401, I think the frame rate is wrong. I had csm560 with 8700G and I was just going to change the gyro and keep the servo but everybody I spoke too said that they don't work properly together.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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Charlie
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Location: New Brunswick, Canada

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The 8700 should work ok, just make sure you have the DS switch turnes off. The DS switch is only for Futaba servos
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Drunk Monk
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Location: Preston, UK

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Quote 
just make sure you have the DS switch turnes off

Problem there is that it is then pointless to use a 8700G. By turning the DS switch off your reducing the frame rate from the gyro from 250Hz to 60hz or there abouts. Expensive servo to waste like that.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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plantone
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Location: Rotorua New Zealand

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Thanks guys

It is in PCM & the DS is turned off already as i beleive the 8700 is a super servo not a digital anyway. Still does nt explain the reason why it travels to its end point first when turned on.

Wayne
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swale
Senior Heliman
Location: UK

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This may be a very silly suggestion but have you tried to hover it,
on the csm560 they just lock over until the heli starts to hover, if not then have you thought about the fact that one of them could be faulty have they been in any crashes? try pluging a standard servo in the 401 and see what happens if it works then the servo is probabley at fault try pluging it into the pitch chanel or something and see how it responds.

another silly point i don't know how expereinced a pilot you are so dont take offense if i ask this but have you checked all your tx settings have you moved the servo arm or anything is the gyro set up corrctly is it binding can you still make the servo move?

Sceadu EVO 50
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Darksider
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Location: Derby United Kingdom

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neither the gyro nor the servo is faulty, this is normal behaviour when a futaba gyro is used with a jr high rate digital servo, unfortunately for this reason the 8700's burn out very fast when used with futaba gyro's which is why you shouldn't use them together, your gonna have to either buy a futaba 9253 or 9254 servo to go with the gyro you already have, or a jr 490t gyro to go with the 8700, but there isn't a way to stop the servo damage when starting the gyro up unfortunately, i suspect futaba did this on purpose to stop people using jr servo's with their systems, but i doubt we'll ever know really.

Gareth
08-08-2004 Over year old.
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z11355
rrMaster
Location: 10000 is enough time wasted.

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true. there are numerous cases where
futaba and jr do not play well together and
this is one of them.

I had another situation w/ jr4131 servos and
futaba 149 pcm receivers. although other
jr servos worked just fine.
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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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Super Servo and Digital mean the same thing, The frame rate is what is important. The GY401 in DS mode is outputing pulses at 270Hz. There are a number of servos that can be used with the 401 that are actually rated higher than the 270Hz that the GY is outputting.

The DS switch simply changes the gyro output and there are a number of servos that will work with this gyro that are not Futaba servos, namely ATX 94757 and 758's. The ATX servos are rated for 300Hz as are several other servos on the market from many manufacturers.

What is the communication speed of the 8700G in Hz? Like others have said, you may have to go a different route.

TM
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BoomBasher
Senior Heliman
Location: Wirral, England, it never rains it....hang on it d

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Digital and super servo are NOT the same
The JR8700G is NOT a digital servo but a very fast analogue servo.
JR call their fast servo's SUPER SERVO's
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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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Boombasher,

You should read the CSM 560 instructions very closely. Here is what is says: 'DS' Support
Digital/super servos are capable of running at high data frame rates (250 frames/second or more). Examples of this type
of servo are JR 8700G, Futaba FP-S9253, Sanwa ERG-WRX and Airtronics 94758.

Maybe you should call up Andy Powell and straighten them right up!

TM
08-09-2004 Over year old.
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plantone
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Location: Rotorua New Zealand

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Darksider

I have changed the servo today for a 9253 & not touched touched any other settings just pluged in servo & turned it on & it done what it was supposed to do So just goes to show not every servo is compatible with every gyro, although i have used the JR 8417 digital with futaba gyro's in the past with no problems.

Swale
If your servo with 560 csm gyro is going hard over like you say you might want to check out your set up!!! That it not natural, mine doesn't do that nor does does my mate's one. He is using a 8700 servo & im using the new 9254 servo.

Wayne
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trvo
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Location: Bognor Regis,UK, Aurorra Ltd

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Hi,

Regarding the CSM 560 Gyro and 8700G servo, I am currently using this combo on my IC, the servo on mine used to go hard over but that was due to it not being set up by myself correctly, the HH mode used to be the only mode that did this, if you flick between the two modes (HH and normal) and adjust the trim until there is no movement when flicking between the two modes you should find there is no problem, that is my experience anyway.

Trev.

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Dud Wright
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Location: Northants UK

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Quote 
8700g must only be used with a PCM setup!


Is this right? I'm new to this and am currently putting together a Raptor 60. I asked my LHS of a good gyro/servo combo and they told me to go with the CSM560/8700G, which I have and there was no mention of me having to have a PCM setup. Hope I'm making sense As far as I'm aware my Raptor 30 is in PPM.
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trvo
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Location: Bognor Regis,UK, Aurorra Ltd

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Hi,

Forgot to mention, I am also using PPM with this CSM560 / 8700G combo, had no probs with it at all after I had set it up correctly, I also have the gyro set for digital mode to go with the servo.

Trev.

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Trex 600e
Trex 600n
Aurorra Ltd, Align UK, Align Factory, CSM, Quick UK, Heli-Lessons
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Dud Wright
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Location: Northants UK

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Thanks, thats reassuring. Thought I was going to have to spend more money
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Drunk Monk
rrProfessor
Location: Preston, UK

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It's recommended you use pcm because the 8700 can generate some noise which can cause the tail to judder alittle. Just keep your eye on it. Not all ppm setups suffer from it but it's something to watch out for.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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Dud Wright
Heliman
Location: Northants UK

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Would I be right in saying that it is just a case of setting the transmitter to PCM. I'm using a 9C 138df receiver.
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Drunk Monk
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Location: Preston, UK

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Looking at the specs for that reciever it says is dual converstion FM which is PPM so you would have to set you tx as PPM. It you wanted to use PCM you would need a PCM reciever.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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Dud Wright
Heliman
Location: Northants UK

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Thanks DM
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BoomBasher
Senior Heliman
Location: Wirral, England, it never rains it....hang on it d

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Hey super servo is a name for a high speed ANALOGUE servo not digital. it just has metal gears thats why they say use PCM cos it might glitch on PPM.

If in doubt goto jr site and you will find digi servo's at top then find standard servos at bottom where you will see 8700 marked as super servo

http://www.macgregor.co.uk/radio/servos.htm#DIGITAL

Mark.
08-09-2004 Over year old.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Boombasher,

Per Len Sabato Team JR, the 8700G's frame rate is the same as a digital servo. That's why the CSM will work in DS Mode on the 8700G. It's the frame rate, dude.

TM
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Drunk Monk
rrProfessor
Location: Preston, UK

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Quote 
Super Servo and Digital mean the same thing,

I agree with Mark, they are not the same thing, the 8700G is definately not a digital servo.

However you are right that the only thing that matters to the 401 is the frame rate.

Quote 
Digital/super servos are capable of running at high data frame rates (250 frames/second or more).

That is right, but it doesn't say that digital and super servo's are the same thing if that was what you were meaning.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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Darksider
Key Veteran
Location: Derby United Kingdom

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glad to hear you got it sorted wayne, as for whether the 8700 is a digital servo or not i couldn't say, perhaps an assumption on my part, but all the futaba high rate servo's say digital servo on the case, and i just went and looked at my 8700 and it doesn't say anything about it being digital, that being said i would have thought at the higher frame rates digital processing would be preferable.

Gareth
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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The term digital as it applies to a high frame rate servo is a misnomer anyway. All servos are digital, this is where the tem "digital proportional" comes in. Remember that term from the early days?

The real question in the context of "digital" vs., "super servo" is the frame rate. Len Sabato says that the 8700G is digital. Personally, I couldn't care less what the names mean or what the sticker looks like, what I care about is the frame rate. If the servo were analog and operating at 60Hz like standard servos, using it on a 500T in high rate would cook the amp and the motor quickly because the servo couldn't keep up with the command rate. The 8700G works in high frame rate mode because we have been doing it on the 500T's. A 9253/54 works on the 500T on high frame rate as well, so what's the difference? So the frame rates must be compatible, otherwise the servo would turn into junk quickly.

I can't imagine that a high speed analog servo would cause noise to an FM/PPM RX just because it has metal gears. I've been running metal gear, high speed analog coreless motor servos on FM/PPM for years and can't measure any more noise compared to regular plastic gear servos.

DM, if you are going to quote me, quote the whole thing, please don't take part of the statement out of context. Please explain the difference between super servo and digital servo in technical terms if you can?

TM
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Darksider
Key Veteran
Location: Derby United Kingdom

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Quote 
DM, if you are going to quote me, quote the whole thing, please don't take part of the statement out of context. Please explain the difference between super servo and digital servo in technical terms if you can?


Handbags at dawn DM??

hehehehe

to the guy asking about running a 560/8700G on ppm, i used one like this for quite a while with no signs of problems at all, i think jr just added the warning because of a very small number of cases of interference experienced while testing, and these days it's better for them to just cover themselves rather than risk liability

Gareth
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Drunk Monk
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Location: Preston, UK

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I only quoted that bit because that was the bit I thought you were talking about.

I think part of the problem is that people aren't fully aware of what the difference are between anolog, digital and super servo's. The best post I've ever read on the issue was by dkshema in November last year and it took some finding again. This will explain what a digital servo is and does a much better job of explaining it that I could ever do
___________________________________________________

Digital servos will work with any standard RC receiver, PCM, PPM/FM, or otherwise. The servo does not know where it is being driven from, or by what kind of receiver. In turn, the receiver doesn't know what kind of servo is hooked up to it.

Your transmitter encodes stick position for each channel in the form of a short electrical pulse. Typically, the pulse width at neutral is about 1.5 milliseconds, and will vary with stick position from a minimum of 1 millisecond (say, full left cyclic), to a maximum of 2 milliseconds (full right cyclic). Each channel has its own pulse of varying width, determined by the stick or switch position. The transmitter assembles each of these pulses into a repeating "train" -- or chain. The pulses are always assembled in the same sequence (aileron always first, elevator next, then throttle, rudder and the rest of the channels -- the order may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer). An entire set of pulses for all channels is called a "frame". The spacing between pulses in each frame is fixed, the width of each pulse varies with the stick position. Frames are separated from each other by a longer, fixed amount of time. The rate at which each frame is transmitted is called the frame rate. The frames have historically been transmitted at somewhere between 50 and 60 frames a second. This "frame rate" determines how often a servo gets a new position update. Each frame represents a new position update, therefore, each servo will get new information at about 50 to 60 times per second.

The receiver's job is to decode the pulse width information in the transmitted signal, and send the proper pulse to the proper servo.

Looking at a particular channel, left/right cyclic for example, the servo connected to that channel will try to position its output arm to match the width of the pulse it is receiving from the transmitter via the receiver.

Inside an analog servo, there is a circuit that is constantly generating a 1.5 millisecond wide "reference" pulse (remember from above, 1.5 milliseconds is considered to be the neutral position). The width of the incoming pulse from the receiver is compared to that of the reference pulse. If the two pulse widths are the same, the servo does not move. If the incoming pulse width is narrower than the reference pulse (say 1 millisecond), the servo electronics applies power to the servo motor which starts the motor turning. Through a series of gears, you get the motion of the arm or wheel that you desire, but the gear train is also connected to a variable resistor, or potentiometer ("pot" for short). As the motor and gears turn, the resistance of the pot changes. The variable resistance value is used to adjust the width of the "reference" pulse in the servo. As the motor and gears turn, the width of the reference pulse is adjusted until the two pulse widths match, at which time the motor stops, and you have a new output wheel position. The servo gets a new position update at the transmitter frame rate -- 50 to 60 times a second. Between updates, with no new position information, the motor is not powered. If you try to move the output arm (or flight loads are present) this will affect the setting of the pot and the electronics will apply power to the motor to keep it at it's current position.

The analog electronics smooths out the pulses of power being applied to the motor using a circuit called a pulse stretcher. The electronics also has some additional feedback built in to keep the servo from "overshooting" its intended position. This part of the feedback loop provides what is called "deadband" -- a small window of time where the motor is not driven. If the feeback loop is too "tight", the servo will continue to "hunt" around its current position. If the feedback loop is too "loose", the servo will overshoot its intended position, and the output arm will tend to "bounce" back and forth around its final position for a short period. The deadband is tweaked by the designer to provide a servo that is fast, doesn't "overshoot" or "undershoot" its position when moving, and so that it doesn't continually oscillate (buzz) when at rest. The deadband introduces a small amount of slop in the system -- you must move the control stick on the TX a certain amount to overcome the dead zone.

In a digital servo, the analog processing stuff has been replaced with a microprocessor. This little computer monitors the incoming pulse width -- it samples (digitizes) the pulse from the RX.

There is still a reference pulse being generated inside the servo, hence, still a need for the feedback pot. The reference pulse width is also digitized by the processor in the servo.

The frame rate from the transmitter is still 50 to 60 times per second, the incoming pulse width to the servo is still in the 1 to 2 millisecond range. The servo is still seeing a new position only 50 to 60 times per second from the transmitter/receiver.

As with the analog servo, the idea is to match the incoming pulse width from the receiver to that of the reference pulse in the servo. The microcomputer controls the switching of power to the motor. When the two pulse widths differ, the computer applies voltage to the motor, monitors the value of the feedback pot, and then stops the motor when the two pulses again match.

The digital servo has the distinct advantage of "knowing" how far the motor must move to get to its new position (the processor knows current position, desired position, and can calculate what it takes to move quickly and efficiently). The processor can drive the motor rapidly for large position changes, and accurately know when to slow down to prevent over or undershoot of the new position. Deadband is still present, but it can be much more accurately controlled by the computer. The control loop inside the servo can be much more responsive and accurate using digital techniques over the analog processing.

The digital servo also has the advantage that the processor can continue to provide shots of current to the motor between position updates (something not easily done in an analog servo) to hold the motor/gear train in its current position until a new position update is received (this is why digital servos will "buzz" when the sticks aren't being moved. The motor is being held in position, instead of "hunting" around its final position.

Analog servos would buzz if the deadband feedback is too tight. This was bad, because it meant the motor and feeback pot were continually moving a small amount -- this led to the feedback pot element wearing, getting crud on it, and eventually making the servo useless until it was disassembled, the pot cleaned and lubed, and put back together.

Digital servos have the distinct advantage of being able to achieve high transit speeds due to the "smarts" designed into the processor program, and high holding torque (since the motor is driven continually between position updates). Accuracy and repeatability are also improved over analog servos.

The downside of digital servos? Well, since the processor is now providing those extra pulses of power to the motor to improve the holding torque and position accuracy between pulse updates, you're using more current out of the battery to run the servo. Your batteries just don't last as long between charges.

The extra current required to achieve low transit times requires a larger gauge wire in the servo lead to reduce losses in the wire due to its resistance. You'll need to make sure servo extensions (if you need them) are also made with the larger gauge wire). Battery packs should also be equipped with larger gauge wires to minimize voltage drop in the leads when all those servos are moving as you'e doing your 3-D stuff with wild abandon.

This results in your needing to either buy higher capacity batteries for your flight pack, limit your flight times and number of flights each day, or go out and purchase a fast field charger, and battery monitor so you can pump up your flight pack while you're at the flying site.

Sorry this is so long winded, but then you did ask what the difference was. Now you know.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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Drunk Monk
rrProfessor
Location: Preston, UK

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A super servo is purely a servo that can operate at high frame rates of about 6ms or less and not all super servo's are digital and not all digitals are super servos (although most are).

From another thread that I forgot to write down, I'm not sure how true this is though.....

Quote 
The 9253 is not a superservo, it's a digital servo that has double frame rate with a fast transit time on the motor/gearing


Handbags at dawn? bring it on


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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DM.

I know how "digital" servos work, I'm in the machine tool business and have been involved with servos since they were hydraulic.

The question remains, specifics please, what is the difference between "super servos" and "digital servos"?

Dave's dissertation, while good doesn't address the "super" part. You didn't answer the question either. The servo is either super or it's digital. From your answer, it sounds like my statement is more true than wrong.

TM
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Drunk Monk
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Location: Preston, UK

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Quote 
The servo is either super or it's digital.


Digital servo's are digital, as in not analog. Super servos is just a term used to describe high frame rate servos. That's how I understand it anyway. An 8700G is not digital but has a high frame rate so it is a super servo.

I can't put it any simplier than that, pass the budweiser


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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DM,

I've got a news flash for you, all our servos are analog! They use a pot for feedback, an analog device to be sure and the pulse train that drives the servo to a commanded position is analog. Even a PCM Rx has a Signetics IC or equivalent for the clock chip and this outputs a decidedly analog signal as well. The only thing that can even remotely be considered digital is the Microprocessor in the servo amp and that is an, if, depending on how it is used to interpret the signal from the decoder.

Quote 
A super servo is purely a servo that can operate at high frame rates of about 6ms or less and not all super servo's are digital and not all digitals are super servos (although most are).


Here's another question. If 6ms is the servo rate and the total frame takes about 20ms to transmit how many channels can I fit into the frame?

Quote 
Digital servo's are digital, as in not analog. Super servos is just a term used to describe high frame rate servos. That's how I understand it anyway. An 8700G is not digital but has a high frame rate so it is a super servo.


What you are really saying is that you don't know and can't explain it. This is fine. I will email JR Propo in Japan and pose the question and reference this thread and we'll see if they know the difference since "Super servo" is their term, maybe they can explain it. DK knows how the DS works as do I. The question now is how the Super Servo differs from the DS and why it will work with some devices like the 401, TJ or CSM gyro?

TM
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TMoore
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A phone call to my friend at Futaba has provided the answer to the question that was originally posed by plantone and further information.

The reason that the 8700 doesn't work is due to the acceleration rate of that servo. The 8700 does indeed work at a compatible frame rate but that is where it ends. Super servos are more of a hybrid digital servo in that they have some microprocessor capablity but the FET's that ultimately drive the motor are still analog. A true digital servo controls the FET's that drive the motor with a microprocessor throughout, hence, the acc/dec rate is much higher than a super servo. One of JR's adverts speak to this when they compare holding torque. They also reference a custom designed JR servo amp made by Mitsubishi. Mits has a lot of experience with servo amps.

The 401 in DS mode is expecting a completely digital servo with high acc & dec's. When the 8700G is used it simply can't keep up with the data from the 401, especially when the 401 is really working the servo hard to maintain control of the tail. It is conceivable that the 8700G is never reaching its commanded position at times and if this happens often enough the servo amp and the motor will eventually fail. It is sort of like running an analog servo system in lag mode or following error mode. The DS is probably working in a velocity feed forward mode that actually precalculates the moves prior to the servo making that commanded move and precalculates the deceleration move. Essentially, the 401 overworks the 8700G and it fails.

When the 8700G is used with a 500T in High frame rate mode JR probably took into account that this servo would be used with their gyro and have taken the appropriate measures to keep from killing their own servo. Since I don't have an 8700G to test this theory I don't have proof positive that this is the case. CSM probably do something comparable as well. They list the 8700G in the DS compatiblity section of the instructions. In a recent blurb put out by MacGregor here is what they said:

"SETUP & ADJUSTMENT.

Please note, if you have a digital or a super servo, set the standard/high rate switch on the gyro to the high position in order to take advantage of the higher frame rate. Standard servos require the switch to be in the standard position."

It would appear that the frame rate of the super and the digital is at least comparable.


My original statement was incorrect in that only the frame rate is comparable.
Quote 
Super Servo and Digital mean the same thing,


Sorry for the error, at least I got the frame rate part of it right.


TM
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Drunk Monk
rrProfessor
Location: Preston, UK

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Good information there TM, nice to get finally to the bottom of it all. No I didn't know the entire difference down to component level between super and digital but I did know that the differences between the digital and analog was just the microprocessor as it says in dkshema post comparing digital to analog.

While it was a long way round there is lots of very useful information here. The question as to what a super servo is has been asked quite a few times and it's nice to finally know what the difference is


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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Climax
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Location: West London, United Kingdom

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Going back to the original problem, i.e. the “incompatibility” between the 401 and 8700G, there might be another explanation...

A couple of years ago I tried using a GY240 and a JR810G, and experienced the same problem (servo briefly hard over one way during initialization). Now interestingly if you plug the tail servo directly into a JR receiver it works fine, if you plug it directly into a Futaba receiver it has the same problem… (I only tried it with a microprocessor based PCM receiver). So it wasn’t the gyro, and both types of receiver pump out effectively the same signals...

My first thoughts were that it was an AC/DC coupling difference with JR tail servos (other types of JR servo work fine with Futaba equipment, e.g. the 8231). Maybe JR wanted to make their tail servos incompatible with Futaba (which I doubt), or they chose a coupling that better suited the design of their gyros.

Another suggestion, pointed out to me, was that it might be related to an embedded controller initialization side-effect. i.e. The pins used on the embedded microprocessor to drive the servos are probably universal in that they can be inputs or outputs. Obviously in this application they must be designated as outputs, but this has to be configured by the receiver’s software during initialization. Before being initialized the pins on the microprocessor are most likely to default to inputs, i.e. be in a high impedance “floating” state. Possibly it is this momentary condition that confuses the servo?

Any of the above would easy to confirm, someone need to stick a storage scope on the signal line a watch what happens… In fact if I can get my hands on our scope and take it home I’ll do the experiment.

Maybe the solution is to add a pull-up/pull-down resistor on the signal line of the servo? Who knows, but I’m now determined to find out!
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53mech
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I'm thinking of buying a 8700G to replace the nes 537 that froze up. I have a GY240 Gryo. Good or Bad idea?
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ClimaxVeteran - Location: West London, United Kingdom - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Bad idea, as it will probably bind you tail pitch linkages on power up...

Also a GY240 can't take advantage of a fast tail servo, its been designed to work with standard speed servos.
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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53mech,

How about a 9254--maybe as a hedge againse future incompatibility issues if you decide to upgrade gyros.

TM
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Drunk Monk
rrProfessor
Location: Preston, UK

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plus the 9254 is faster, but not by much and, over here anyway, can be got cheaper than the 8700g


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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DM,

Here's the thing that I find interesting. I assumed that the Super Servo was an earlier rev of a microprocessor based servo amp, I was wrong. The SS is only partially digital, enough to handle driving the motor at a higher frame rate than a true analog servo but not quite fast enough to keep up with modern gyro technology. The true digitals must be precalculating the move prior to executing the command. When you couple that with a gyro that is trying to make the heli rotate so it can measure yaw and then correct for it, it is easy to see how a SS could get in a situation where it never reaches it's commanded position before the next command is trying to be executed. From my experience this makes motors and amps run hot. Even a 401/9253 combination is capable of some pretty hot temps after a spirited flight.

The PCM requirement probably comes into play because of the noise that the amp and motor create. This is easy to measure though.

If the 8700G is JR's "gyro" servo, knowing the limitations, what would happen if a real digital servo were combined on JR's 490/500T and the communication rate kicked up to match? This would take the 8700G out of the list of choices but possibly make for an even better gyro/servo combination. Ahh, the possibilities.

Terry
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53mech
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8700G

You guys are right . I talk to shawgl and he said the Futaba 9253 or 9254 are the better two for the gryo I have.
Thanks for the response.
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Drunk Monk
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Location: Preston, UK

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As far as I know the 8700G can't pre-calculate anything because it doesn't have a microprocessor so I guess it's more a passive system. The servo itself is pretty damn quick, 0.09 sec @ 60 degrees is not slow but being as it's "analog" I guess you are right in that it is always playing catchup to the gyro. The 9253/9254 can precalculate because of the cpu in the servo, this is also going to give it better holding power because of the pulsing to the motor. I've noticed the warm servos a couple of times too.

I couldn't comment on the jr 490/500T since I've never used the jr gyro's. I'm more a futaba man myself


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Stephen,

Is the 8700G really analog completely or are there some digital components involved? A look at the amp will tell us. I may take one apart up at IRCHA.

My mate will have one on his CAL30 and I may sneak a peek.

I can say the the 500T holds a treat. It is solid as a rock when set up correctly. This gyro is one of the best to ever come from JR for the masses that is.

Mere mortals don't have to worry about our tail rotors holding like the pros. I just need mine to get through the weekend until my next pint or two.

Terry
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Drunk Monk
rrProfessor
Location: Preston, UK

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Quote 
I just need mine to get through the weekend until my next pint or two.

I won't argue with you there

The 8700 is listed as Coreless, Dual Ball Bearings (wide spaced). I don't know whether it is completly analog or not. I can't see it needed a microprocessor to sort out the high frame rate but the output to the motor is definately analog. It's been a while since I had mine and can't remeber what it looked like in side

I had my 8700 on a csm560 and it did nothing but drift so I got shut of them both and got a 401/9253. After smashing the 9253 in a crash I put a 9254 on but didn't notice any difference but I can't do fast backward flight to test it. Can't do slow backwards flight either

I'm still pretty convinced that the term super servo just means any servo that is capable of high frame rate rather that a particular type of servo. That's how it was explained to me a while ago, but it was a while ago and I've slept since then What ya think?


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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Stephen,

The 560's that I'm using is the new ones from CSM with the new sensor and firmware, running with 94758's from ATX. These things do not drift. They hold real well in slow backwards flight both inverted and upright and I'm not quite there with the fast stuff. They do heat up the servo a little and I am using a HS case.

The 500T's seem to get on real well with the 8700G and I think that is because when JR did the 500 they probably had the 8700G in mind. That gyro holds real well, but for me I have to regulate the gyro to 5.1 volts as I am using 5 cell packs.

Quote 
I'm still pretty convinced that the term super servo just means any servo that is capable of high frame rate rather that a particular type of servo. That's how it was explained to me a while ago, but it was a while ago and I've slept since then What ya think?


Too true. The thing that threw me is the almost universal use of SS and DS when it comes to stuff like gyros, governors and the like. Sanwa and Futaba skipped the SS phase and went right to DS type servos and avoided the high power consumption of the SS. It's the degrees of compatibility thing that throws you because in Plantone's case he was using the 8700G in DS mode thinking like I would that this is a high frame rate servo, but not exactly a digital servo. Hence, it doesn't work.

What is needed next is an intelligent servo amp and optical feedback encoder to replace the old pots. The idea being that the servo could communicate as fast as the system needed and could be flexible enough not to kill the battery by constantly pulsing the servo at the maximum frequency.

Terry
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DS 8717
rrProfessor
Location: Here wishing i was somewhere else

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Stephen,

The 560's that I'm using is the new ones from CSM with the new sensor and firmware, running with 94758's from ATX. These things do not drift. They hold real well in slow backwards flight both inverted and upright and I'm not quite there with the fast stuff. They do heat up the servo a little and I am using a HS case.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The airtronics 94157 HI torque,hi speed servo was ,is an amp suckin monster. The JR super servo's 2700,8700,and 4000 draw a lot more current than the digital servo's. I have a 94157 on an xcell with a JR 5000T and it works very good. DOUG
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Douglas,

Try the 357's or the 360. What's that sound I hear when I turn on the switch?

TM
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plantone
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Location: Rotorua New Zealand

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TMOORE

If you read my second post i actually say that i was NOT in DS mode.Not that it matters because it flew great all day it was the start up issue i was concerned about. If this happens when using JR servos (super servo) with Futaba gyro's does the same happen when using Futaba servo's with JR gyro's??????

Wayne

Have i opened a can of worms or what!!!
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Wayne,

It's been great eh?

No, the Futaba servos work normally on the JR gyros. Here in the States I have personally used, an 8700G, 9253,9254, 94758 and 757 on the JR 490/500T and they all worked fine.

I did read your second post and the start up issue was a concern even in the non DS mode. Chalk it up to an incompatibility issue I guess. Someone above my pay grade will have to explain it to me.

Cheers,

Terry
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Andi G
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Hi,

how do you like the 490T/9254 combo? No strange jittering from the servo? I think there was a 500T/9253 thread mentioning problems.

I might try the 490T, but I'm not really fond of that 8700G Servo. I prefer plastic gears on tail anyway...

The problem with 401/8700 is simple, during initializing the 501 (and probably all other Futaba SMM servos including 401) will give a high signal level. A digital servo will ignore this and not move at all.
An analogue servo like the 8700G sees this as a really long pulse and will move to that side with all force until something binds. Not good for tail, servo gears and especially the motor and fets...

http://uroehr.de/elektronik/pulslimiter/index.html This can solve the problem, but I'd just get a 9254 and be done with it.

Andi
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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Andi,

So far the 490/500T has been a great gyro. Once it is sub-trimmed for the drift it works great.

That's a good explanation of the what is going on with the 401/8700G. Makes sense too.

Terry
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Andi G
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Hi,

thanks for the info, I use all Futaba right now (FF9, R149, 401), but I think the 401 is getting a bit old. Maybe Futaba has a surprise for us in fall (Tokio Hobby Show)?

Andi
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Unbalanced
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

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The 401 puts out an extended pulse during power on which the 8700 translates as a hard over command. There is a circuit a german chap developed which filters this big pulse and all is good. I used an 8700/401 (running non ds frame rate) for a couple of years before recently replacing it with a 601 combo. If anyone wants to offer me something for the circuit I built (little inline thing covered in heatshrink) then you're welcome.

Strange sort of debate about digital and analogue then adding superservo into the mix. All "digital" servo's incorporate some analogue technology to drive the motors & position sensing via a pot, so from an electronics perspective they are a hybrid which is pretty typical (if only the outside world was analogue we could keep it all so simple !).

So "digital" servo's incorporate a microprocessor (ie. computer) based control system. Superservo to me sounds like a marketing term for a servo that runs at a higher frame rate - could utilise a microprocessor or analogue control circuit.

Would be clearer to describe the servo's as microprocessor vs analogue based.

Jeff
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Drunk Monk
rrProfessor
Location: Preston, UK

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Quote 
Superservo to me sounds like a marketing term for a servo that runs at a higher frame rate

That's just what I thought, so a super servo could be analog or digital. We were hoping somebody could clear up the differences


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....
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craneyum
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Location: warwickshire uk

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Digital
DS361 - 3.8/0.24/30x13x28.5/22 - Miniature Ballraced

DS381 - 1.3/0.23/21.5x11.5x22/9 - Sub Miniature Ballraced

DS811 - 4.0/0.21/34.5x19x39/44 - High Performace General Use

DS3201 - 4.0/0.22/26.5x15x33/26 - Miniature Double Ballraced

DS3301 - 4.0/0.22/33x15x33/30 - Standard Double Ballraced

DS8201 - 4.0/0.19/34.5x19x39/49 - Standard Double Ballraced

DS8301 - 6.5/0.19/34.5x19x39/49 - High Torque Double Ballraced

DS8401 - 11.0/0.19/34.5x19x39/49 - Very High Torque

DS8231 - 6.5/0.19/34.5x19x39/49 - High Precision Double Ballraced

DS8425*- 11.0/0.19/34.5x19x39/60 - Very High Torque Metal Gears

DS8455*- 6.5/0.10/34.5x19x39/60 - Very High Torque Metal Gears

DS9301 - 4.3/0.21/26.5x19x36/37 - Standard Double Ballraced

*8425 same as 8411

*8455 same as 8417

Speed
At the heart of this new technology beats a specially developed digital amplifier, which sends pulses to the coreless servo motor at over quadruple the frequency of a conventional servo amplifier. The resulting increase in power is regulated by high frequency Field Effect Transistors (FETs), to produce near Super Servo performance but with a current drain only slightly higher than a comparable Premium Coreless servo.

Precision
Each DS servo offers a resolution of 5,900 steps per 120 degrees for maximum precision, whilst an ultra narrow deadband ensures that the servo will return to within a hair’s width of centre every time. And since a DS series servo powers up so fast, it is able to withstand deflections under load almost as well as a Super Servo. This virtually eliminates the soggy feel that you may get from a standard servo when it encounters heavy loads.

Torque
To get maximum punch from all these advanced electronics, JR’s engineers have reconfigured the gear train to give even less radial movement of the output shaft and greater resistance to wear. Both the DS8411 and 8417 feature alloy metal gears.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Standard
NES306 - 0.5/0.1/21.2x11.5x19.5/6 - Super Micro High Speed

NES321 - 2.3/0.23/26x15x33/22 - Mini Ballraced

NES341 - 2.3/0.24/30x13x28.5/18 - Micro Mini Plain Bearing

NES371 - 1.3/0.23/21.5x11.5x22/9 - Sub Micro Plain Bearing

NES511 - 3.5/0.26/33.5x19x39/45 - Precision Neutral

NES513 - 4.8/1.15(160º)/33.5x19x39/45 - Ballraced Retract

NES537 - 3.1/0.25/34.5x19x38/45 - Standard

NES577 - 3.4/0.24/38.3x18.6x35/44 - Standard

NES591 - 5.1/0.24/38.3x18.6x35/38 - Standard High Torque

NES615 - 13/0.2/53.5x32x63.5/145 - Very High Torque

NES703 - 6.7/1.3(160º)/23.5x22.5x44/35 - Low Profile Retract

NES3125 - 3.2(6v)/0.13(6v)/26x15x33/26 - Reduced Height

NES7005 - 4.5/0.19/23.5x22.5x44/38 - High Speed Low Profile

NES7300* - 4.8/0.14/26x22.5x44/43 - Low Profile Precision

NES8300* - 6.5/0.19/34.5x19x38/52 - High Torque High Speed

NES810G* - 2.4/0.1/34.5x19x38/47 - Ballraced Tail Servo

NES8700G*- 3.5/0.09/34.5x19x38/60 - High Speed Tail Servo

NES9011 - 3.9/0.21/26.5x19x36/37 - Low Profile Ballraced

* Super Servo


So the 8700g is a standard servo.
Nigel

Learn By Other Peoples Mistakes It Costs Less
08-12-2004 Over year old.
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